BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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from the Critique thread
To claim that the OV asserts that God has no control is simply not true and for you to claim that Bob asserts this after reading his last post, quite frankly Dave I thought better of you than that!Dave Miller said:
Shadowx
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A passionate plea for dispassion
A passionate plea for dispassion
Well I'm glad there is no passion in your post.. :chuckle:
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and
There is a time for passion..especially in theological debates.., but of course there is a line..
But..it's all inside of time and stuff (For knight so he doesn't move thread again) lol
A passionate plea for dispassion
Well I'm glad there is no passion in your post.. :chuckle:
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and
There is a time for passion..especially in theological debates.., but of course there is a line..
But..it's all inside of time and stuff (For knight so he doesn't move thread again) lol
deardelmar said:
God is omnicompetent. His 'control' is providential, not meticulous. Job shows that Satan has some power, but he is on a short leash. Hitler was eventually stopped, etc. In the end, justice will take place. In the mean time, He is with us in the midst of trials brought about by living in a fallen world that is rebellion against His Kingdom. Light triumphs over darkness. Daniel shows a warfare in the heavens. The ministry of Jesus also shows a warfare model. Only ivory tower theologians foist on us a blueprint model of sovereignty that does not square with Scripture or reality.
Z Man
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You've got to be kidding me. If Bob was any more OFF topic, we'd have to put the debate on a different website!Rimi said:
As for that very unnecessary letter, I made a valid rebuttal against such false claims HERE. It's worth your time. I cannot stress enough how important it is to make aware of Brian's false conclusions in his letter by the proof of Scripture.
Let me see if I understand you correctly, ZMan . . . . I have many questions for you . . . .
. . . when a baby is raped, this is what God wanted to have happen?
. . . when a woman is raped, this is what God wanted to have happen?
Answer why God said to Cain in Genesis 4:6-7:
"Why are you angry?
Apparently, Cain had a choice to not be angry or God wouldn't feel the need to ask. Why is God asking if He's the one who made Cain to be angry anyway?
Why is your face downcast?
If Cain doesn't really have a choice because God knows what he's doing to do anyway, why is God asking?
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
Why is God saying this since He's orchestrating everything anyway? Doesn't He know the answer?
But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Why would God give advice since He knows how it's going to play out anyway?
If God knows every choice, He would know every thought, yes? Then answer why God said to HIMSELF in Gen 6:3 and 11:6):
"My Spirit will not contend wth man forever, for he is mortal, his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
??? They have no free will, so why are they contending with God? Why is he saying this? Per you, He already knew this was going to happen, didn't He?
"If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."
Thought they didn't have free will. Wonder why God is surprised here. Why does God think nothing will be impossible for them if He knows exactly what's going to happen?
I need to look up the word blasphemy to see if it applies.
. . . when a baby is raped, this is what God wanted to have happen?
. . . when a woman is raped, this is what God wanted to have happen?
Answer why God said to Cain in Genesis 4:6-7:
"Why are you angry?
Apparently, Cain had a choice to not be angry or God wouldn't feel the need to ask. Why is God asking if He's the one who made Cain to be angry anyway?
Why is your face downcast?
If Cain doesn't really have a choice because God knows what he's doing to do anyway, why is God asking?
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
Why is God saying this since He's orchestrating everything anyway? Doesn't He know the answer?
But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
Why would God give advice since He knows how it's going to play out anyway?
If God knows every choice, He would know every thought, yes? Then answer why God said to HIMSELF in Gen 6:3 and 11:6):
"My Spirit will not contend wth man forever, for he is mortal, his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
??? They have no free will, so why are they contending with God? Why is he saying this? Per you, He already knew this was going to happen, didn't He?
"If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."
Thought they didn't have free will. Wonder why God is surprised here. Why does God think nothing will be impossible for them if He knows exactly what's going to happen?
I need to look up the word blasphemy to see if it applies.
Z Man
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Who the hell has ever raped a baby? Why do you guys get all dramatic and offensive against my views by declaring such retarded notions?Rimi said:
Wanted? No. But ordained? Yes.
Did Christ want to die on the cross? No. Was it ordained by God that He do it anyways? Yes. Did you really want to spank your child for misbehaving? No. But was it necessary for a better cause in the end? Yes. We may not understand why God would allow such calamities as rape to occur in our lives, but our knowledge and desires in life are limited to only what we know of the short days we exist on earth. But God's view is eternal. He sees past the few days that we cannot. He has an eternal plan. The least you can do is trust Him during times you don't understand or are suffering.
All of these examples you bring up to prove freewill are horrible. Not to mention, you are not making a clear rebuttal against my post HERE. My point is that God ordains calamities in our life, and Scripture proves it. You have begun an entirely different debate about freewill.
elected4ever
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because man has free will which no one denies. Man is responsible for his independent actions but that does not prevent God's foreknowledge. Are you attempting to make God the author of evil and responsible fort the evil that man has chosen?Rimi said:
it is for Cain's benefit that the questions were ask. Not God's. This in no way implies that God did not know the answers.
[What makes you think that God was surprised? God's knowing does not prevent free choice. Your statement,"They have no free will", is a false assumption. No not bear false witness against me.
elected4ever
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Z, I think these guys wont to take God of his throne and make him responsible for the evil in the heart of man, which man chose by the way. Now they wont God to be responsible for the evil that a man does. That is why they make these outlandish attacks against us that have no basis in factual truth.
elected4ever
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Did God make the choice for you or did you make the choice? When God knew your choice has no relevance in your ability to make it.Rimi said:
Z Man
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They do not understand the Biblical truth that even though God ordains it, we are still responsible. Jonathan Edwards once said:elected4ever said:
God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.
This is a fundamental truth that helps explain some perplexing things in the Bible, namely, that God often expresses his will to be one way, and then acts to bring about another state of affairs.
- God opposes hatred toward his people, yet ordained that his people be hated in Egypt (Genesis 12:3; Psalm 105:25 – "He turned their hearts to hate his people.").
- He hardens Pharaoh's heart, but commands him to let his people go (Exodus 4:21; 5:1; 8:1).
- He makes plain that it is sin for David to take a military census of his people, but he ordains that he do it (2 Samuel 24:1; 24:10).
- He opposes adultery, but ordains that Absalom should lie with his father's wives (Exodus 20:14; 2 Samuel 12:11).
- He forbids rebellion and insubordination against the king, but ordained that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel against Rehoboam (Romans 13:1; 1 Samuel 15:23; 1 Kings 12:15-16).
- He opposes murder, but ordains the murder of his Son (Exodus 20:13; Acts 4:28).
- He desires all men to be saved, but effectually calls only some (1 Timothy 2:4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Timothy 2:26).
elected4ever
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I would not go so far as to say that God predestined every act in history but God in His foreknowledge permitted every act in history. God did not predestine man to be evil. He predestined man to be in His image which is a totally different thing. Man chose to be evil and God permitted it because God gave man the freedom of choice. God does not violate man's authority to choose by choosing some to be good and some to be evil, some to be saved and some to be lost. Those are the decisions a man makes and God permits it. None of this violates God's foreknowledge. It is God's foreknowledge that guarantees victory.GuySmiley said:
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elected4ever
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I do not know what Arminianism is. I thought you guys said I was a Calvinist? :bang:RightIdea said:
RightIdea
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Did you not see the basic chart of the 4 views that I provided in another thread? If so, let me clarify...elected4ever said:
Calvinists believe God meticulously foreordained all events, and that the basis for His foreknowledge is that He foreordained everything. (Which basically makes it irrelevant whether God is "outside of time" or not.) For example, R.C. Sproul has said that if there's even one rogue molecule in the universe not under the direct control of God's will, then God's sovereignty is completely undone. He's also stated that in Genesis 6, not only did God foreknow the world would be totally wicked (except for 8 people), but that it was His will this would happen, and that He made sure it would happen. This is Calvinism.
Arminians believe that God foreknows the future (almost invariably by being outside of time), but that many things happen (especially things like sins) that God did not foreordain. He passively observed they would happen, but didn't predestine those events, nor did He predestine anyone individually to be saved or damned.
So, the question is whether you believe God meticulously predestined every detail or not. If not, if God only unconditionally foreordained certain things (like the crucifixion) but allows us free choices to which He responds... then you're Arminian.
On another note, total Arminianism believes that people can lose their salvation. However, it's possible to be a "4-point" Arminian just as it's possible to be a 4-point Calvinist. So, you can hold to eternal security while basically being an Arminian. Heck, I hold to eternal security, and I'm an OVer!
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