Battle Talk ~ BR XI
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Not about the government
Not about the government
Not about the government
Once again, the debate is not about the government and the death penalty but about the christian and the death penalty. The government and its piddling criminal code is just a poor reflection of the law of God before which every man stands condemned. I don't give a rip about your standing before your government's criminal code, what is your standing before the bar of God? If you are righteous it is because you have the righteousness of Christ who received the DP on your behalf. If you are not you will receive the DP soon enough (eternal death).Delmar said:
You don't give a rip about my standing before God's minister? The fact that you don't get the Romans 12-13 argument does not make it irelevent! Don't repay evil for evil but give place to wrath.... God's minister should handle the wrath!stevenw said:
i sum the debate up like this:
murderers deserve the death penalty, sometimes governments support this - and they will not go to heaven unless they repent
non-murderers dont deserve the death penalty, governments usually support this - they will not go to heaven unless they repent
adulterers deserve the death penalty, governments dont support this - and they will not go to heaven unless they repent
non-adulterers dont deserve the death penalty, governments usually support this - they will not go to heaven unless they repent
christians should follow the laws of their government unless doing so would lead to breaking gods laws - so if a government supports the death penalty for murder or adultery then its right and proper for christians to support the death penalty.
if a government does not support the death penalty for murder and adultery then christians are not violating gods or governments laws by supporting the death penalty, but they are if they practice such.
in closing - theo - you lost.
murderers deserve the death penalty, sometimes governments support this - and they will not go to heaven unless they repent
non-murderers dont deserve the death penalty, governments usually support this - they will not go to heaven unless they repent
adulterers deserve the death penalty, governments dont support this - and they will not go to heaven unless they repent
non-adulterers dont deserve the death penalty, governments usually support this - they will not go to heaven unless they repent
christians should follow the laws of their government unless doing so would lead to breaking gods laws - so if a government supports the death penalty for murder or adultery then its right and proper for christians to support the death penalty.
if a government does not support the death penalty for murder and adultery then christians are not violating gods or governments laws by supporting the death penalty, but they are if they practice such.
in closing - theo - you lost.
theo_victis
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Do you see a reoccurring theme here? Government this.. Government that... How many times do I have to remind you that this debate had nothing to do with governments but rather whether a Christian should support the DP.
I am actually happy that you are the first to state that Christians should support the DP because they are to obey their governments. Turbo, however, then is wrong to say that he Christians should obey the governing authorities because he lives in Michigan where it is forbidden. I live in Minnesota where it is also forbidden. So, logically speaking, Turbo is disobeying his local authorities.
However, I do not think this is the reason why one should either support the DP or reject it. I believe that Christians are not to judge hypocritically. If I condemn someone even though I was already condemned in my sins then I should not support someone's death.
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
If I sin against the law and break it by, let's say, dishonoring my parents, or false witness, or coveting my neighbor's property, I am guilty of breaking all of it. I my brother keeps the whole law but breaks it by committing murder, he is guilty of breaking all of it. We both are guilty of breaking all of it. So it would be hypocritical of me to condemn him when I, myself, am just as much if not more of a law breaker. Christians cannot be hypocrites like this!
1Pe 2:1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
In closing, I think you need to support whether Christians can judge hypocritically because that is the only way you can prove that Christians should support Capital punishment since the NT ethic of forgiveness, love, mercy and the obsoletion of the Law (read Hebrews 8, James 2) demonstrates that Christians should act and speak as those under freedom of the law and thus are fully able to exemplify love and not hypocritical judgment.
You need to reconcile that Justice is done at the Cross for sins on earth for those who believe in him. It is called substitutionary atonement. Maybe a good introductory theology book like Millard Erickson's would help you out.
Also, God's judgment is far superior to ours because he never sinned. God never broke the law which condemns us. He is the only one who can truly judge. We will all die. So a murderer will die, a Christian will die, all of us will die. We do not have to speed up the process. God's final judgment will come soon enough, it is our job as Christians to serve and love others and let the gospel be proclaimed.
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Authority on earth and in Heaven is Christ's! What does he tell his disciples? Go and make disciples of every nation. Notice he does not say, go and make sure justice is served in every nation.
Justice was completed on the Cross. Every wrong will be made right by God in the final Judgment, but for those who have Christ, we will escape the fiery depths of hell. A Christian should not support the DP.
theo_victis
New member
But what you have wrong here is that the wrath does not necessitate death. Their is huge exegetical implications that the sword in Romans 13 does not equate to death, but rather the power to exercise authority.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
Tell me, why would our struggle be against the rulers and authorities of this world who are put in the same category as the powers of darkness if all authorities were ministers of God's wrath?
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Col 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Tell me, who is the true authority now? Since Christ disarmed them?
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
It is Christ who is the authority and by his authority we shall live by. However, we are to respect those illegitimate authorities, and as stipe said, reject them if they reject God's ruling. The law and condemnation is gone, nailed to the Cross. We do not need to support the DP. We cannot, as it would be hypocrisy!
theo_victis
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I am a terrible speller.
when you remove government the only way christians can support the death penalty is by advocating vigilantism and murder .. if youd been in a debate titled "should christians support vigilantism and murder" you would have won.theo_victis said:
this debate was always about the governments role once turbo pointed out gods standards for governments.
are you accusing turbo of murder? turbo is perfectly within his rights to say his governmental system is wrong ... as anybody is .. even governments who legislate against opposing thought can do nothing to stop people believing other than what they dictate.theo_victis said:
i dont claim to be able to win this debate on my points here ... i think turbo has already done so.
are you condemned in your sin? perhaps you should repent.theo_victis said:
so i think it would be good to be free of the law. do you know how we can do that?theo_victis said:
christians are not condemned by the lawtheo_victis said:
exactly .. then if you accept jesus and rid yourself of sin .. what is to stop you accepting gods standard of justice for clearly defined behaviour?theo_victis said:
gods judgement is not hypocriticaltheo_victis said:
justice for the sins of people who repent.theo_victis said:
repent, for the kingdom of god is at hand.theo_victis said:
what would happen if his disciples had made disciples out of the members of an established government?theo_victis said:
theo_victis
New member
Excuse me? "Should Christians support the Death Penalty?" is a different question then "Should governments use the Death Penalty?"
Romans 13, as I have pointed out tirelessly, is not about the death penalty. Holy crap!
You know what? It would be nice if you read what I wrote before babbling.
I am sorry, did you miss this passage of scripture?
Luk 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
or how about this one?
Jam 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
Jam 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
God is the only judge.
I know. That is what I am saying. We are not God, let God judge. Let God be God and man be man. Read Genesis 50. Joseph, in government authority, states, "Am I God?" He doesnt execute his brothers or punish them.
Then the would be Christians?!?!?!
right .. so it seems you had no interest in the topic of debate .. your stance seems to be that we let government make the laws and we be christians that do not condemn people to death.
again .. if the debate were titled "should christians execute murderers" you might have had a chance .. but to provide turbo with competition you needed to show why governments should not execute murderers.
i know in my day-to-day existence i do not have to insist on murderers being executed, but i am powerfully moved by gods standard as pointed out by turbo .. hence i support the death penalty.
luckily i am backed up by my government.
again .. if the debate were titled "should christians execute murderers" you might have had a chance .. but to provide turbo with competition you needed to show why governments should not execute murderers.
i know in my day-to-day existence i do not have to insist on murderers being executed, but i am powerfully moved by gods standard as pointed out by turbo .. hence i support the death penalty.
luckily i am backed up by my government.
theo_victis
New member
You are still missing the point. Should Christians support the DP? Should I, a Christian support others being put to death? And the answer is clearly no. We shouldnt seek death for anyone. You are missunderstanding the debate entirely, and so did Turbo. How can you read governments into this when the question has nothing to do with them?
We are at ends with governments!
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
Christ disarmed the governments:
Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
How do you handle that?
The thing is, governments do not matter to the Christian. Christ became our authority when it was given to him after his ressurrection (Mat 28). We do not live under the law anymore, so how can we judge people by it? (James 2)
Christians should never seek others to be put to death. Governments have been stripped of their authority with Christ's victory over death. God is the only true Judge we should value. Turbo's position does not stand when we look at the NT.
theo_victis
New member
What about God's command to forgive, show mercy and not judge hypocritically? Hmm... What about God making the OT Law obsolete in Christ? Hmm.... I am powerfully moved by God's mercy.
God desires mercy not sacrifice.
No no no If you word the question like this....Is it possible for Christians encourage the government to fulfill it's God given function without supporting the death penalty?.... you will see that the question is exactly the same!theo_victis said:
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sorry.
lost in re-translation.
youre entitled to your view, but its wrong .. a minor repurcussion of youre beliefs is that youve lost this debate... a major repurcussion of this debate is its going to be very difficult for you to admit youre wrong . ...
lost in re-translation.
youre entitled to your view, but its wrong .. a minor repurcussion of youre beliefs is that youve lost this debate... a major repurcussion of this debate is its going to be very difficult for you to admit youre wrong . ...
Just Tom
New member
Theo Theo theo,
So in your view what is the gospel?
I see it as Christ said "REPENT!!!!"
Now you were utterly destroyed in this debate. Since you use verses like James which have to do with members in the Church and how we don't judge one another because I am a doctor and you may be a janitor. I shouldn't look down on you but have mercy on you and help you because Jesus is your master too.
It has nothing to do with "SHOULD Christians support the death penalty". Now since as scripture clearly teaches it is the government who executes criminals not the citizens your attempt to say that the govenment has nothing to do with this is a sad attempt to try to have a moral victory in an utter defeat. :thumb:
So in your view what is the gospel?
I see it as Christ said "REPENT!!!!"
Now you were utterly destroyed in this debate. Since you use verses like James which have to do with members in the Church and how we don't judge one another because I am a doctor and you may be a janitor. I shouldn't look down on you but have mercy on you and help you because Jesus is your master too.
It has nothing to do with "SHOULD Christians support the death penalty". Now since as scripture clearly teaches it is the government who executes criminals not the citizens your attempt to say that the govenment has nothing to do with this is a sad attempt to try to have a moral victory in an utter defeat. :thumb:
theo_victis
New member
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Define imprisonment. Imprisonment as it stands now? Yes.
Rehabilitative, correctional imprisonment as what I am advocating? No. It is discipline which is different. The chief goal of discipline is that one learns from their mistakes. Not the same as punishment.
Theo wrong. Turbo right.
Theo wrong. Turbo right.
Two quick points I wanted to highlight where Theo completely missed the boat.
1. When he brought up about the adulteress caught in the very act of adultery, he failed to see that Christ didn’t just arbitrarily pardon her. Notice that Christ asks “Woman where are your accusers?” When there are none the Bible says,
2. Next Theo brings up Job 11:10
It was a bit embarrassing to read Theo’s last two posts. Very sad. Turbo, you were fantastic.
Theo wrong. Turbo right.
Two quick points I wanted to highlight where Theo completely missed the boat.
1. When he brought up about the adulteress caught in the very act of adultery, he failed to see that Christ didn’t just arbitrarily pardon her. Notice that Christ asks “Woman where are your accusers?” When there are none the Bible says,
Notice that Jesus asks about her accusers. This is because the law demands two or three witnesses, and since there were none Jesus could not rightly condemn her.
2. Next Theo brings up Job 11:10
Theo completely ignores that this goes perfectly with what Turbo had already stated about prison only being allowed until court, but not as punishment, rather as protection until judgment has been rendered. Once that happened, the three tier system of God’s Justice system (capitol, corporal, restitution) could be justly rendered.
It was a bit embarrassing to read Theo’s last two posts. Very sad. Turbo, you were fantastic.
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