One Eyed Jack
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They survived the flood.
Yes. I'm sure you've heard of Noah's Ark.
Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII
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They survived the flood.
Yes. I'm sure you've heard of Noah's Ark.
Thank you Jack.
So the dino's were on the Ark too? That's the first time I've heard that one. You must admit it sounds a little far fetched to the layman?
My personal favourite is the one where God puts the fossils there to test peoples faith, or was that just a joke? Forgive my ignorance, I'm here to learn.
Please don't take offence at my banter I may not agree but I do listen.
Thanx
Corky
So the dino's were on the Ark too? That's the first time I've heard that one. You must admit it sounds a little far fetched to the layman?
My personal favourite is the one where God puts the fossils there to test peoples faith, or was that just a joke? Forgive my ignorance, I'm here to learn.
Please don't take offence at my banter I may not agree but I do listen.
Thanx
Corky
One Eyed Jack
New member
Yes.
Really?
I dunno -- I'm a layman myself, and I don't think it sounds too far-fetched.
I don't think it's a joke (even though it may sound like one) -- apparently, some people actually believe that. It's not a good explanation, in any case.
Thank you Jack,
No, honestly that's the first time I've heard about the dinos being actually on the Ark. But, alas, it seems to open up a whole new can of worms when I think about it.
The first thing that springs to mind is food. Some dinos were caniverous, where they not? I'm assuming they didn't have refrigeration on the ark.
Second thing is size. I'm trying to imagine... even if this thing was as big has London, how would it hold together? I take it it was made of wood?
It all seems very strange
No, honestly that's the first time I've heard about the dinos being actually on the Ark. But, alas, it seems to open up a whole new can of worms when I think about it.
The first thing that springs to mind is food. Some dinos were caniverous, where they not? I'm assuming they didn't have refrigeration on the ark.
Second thing is size. I'm trying to imagine... even if this thing was as big has London, how would it hold together? I take it it was made of wood?
It all seems very strange
One Eyed Jack
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I notice that your ISP is a cable provider. You might want to check out this site. Video #3 will answer many of your questions.
They didn't need it. Before the flood, everything ate plants. Even today, many carnivorous animals can survive on a diet of vegetable matter.
Yes, but Noah didn't take full-grown dinosaurs on the Ark, so this wasn't as big a problem as you might imagine. The Ark's dimensions are given in the Bible. It wasn't nearly as big as London -- it was a bit smaller than an aircraft carrier.
May I ask, are you a Christian?
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ex_fundy
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With the level of certitude you write, I would have expected you to have researched (and been able to quickly access) reliable evidence to support your claims. But it's obvious from your responses that you haven't thoroughly researched it. I'd guess that you read it on a couple of your YE sites and believed them without question, simply because they agree with your world-view.
Let me explain why I conclude this:
1) You don't even know what "primary source" is regarding historic research. That indicates to me that you've probably never had a course that involved any level of research and your self taught mode of research is probably weak. A "primary source" is simply the words of a witness or first recorder of an event. You really should take a good history course that involves research.
2) The one link you gave me claims 500 stories exist, names just 35, actually tells only 12, and has only 2 links from those 12 to their supposed source links (1 link was dead and the other was to a small site dedicated to Minnisota's Native American history). Then in typical YE web fashion, they offer links to various other similarly undocumented sites that echo the same stories (except for 1 decent link I followed). That's not exactly my idea of a reputable site for doing research.
The difference is significant regarding your theory of an almost flat earths land surface prior to the flood. Remember, you were trying to explain how there was enough water to rise above the highest piece of land on the earth at that time. I was merely demonstrating that according to Genesis, the world was not virtually flat at that point in time. I think you'll agree with me on this point.
That would be great. You give me an estimate on the number of animals on the ark, and I"ll do some mathematics to analyze the crowding issue. Make sure you don't forget the dinosaurs, as I see you think they were on the ark too. And don't forget the birds.
But believing that a 500+ year old man 4500 years ago built a 425' ark, stocked it with 200 days supplies for a large number of animals (I'm still waiting for your number) and 8 people, loaded the animals into the ark, and withstood a storm that covered the entire globe in water, then got drunk (I can believe this part of the story), passed out naked, and then cursed his youngest son for catching him like that is easy for you to believe?
I find it fascinating that you can believe that easier than my statement. You must admit that many people are alive today that read The Genesis Flood in the early 80's. I'm sure you wouldn't deny that 100's of thousands of people have attended YE seminars. So what would make it so hard to believe one of those persons is me? Would a scanned image of my well worn copy of the Genesis Flood suffice as evidence for you? How about I sign an affidavit that I once taught and staunchly (though not nearly as staunchly as you) defended a YE view? I'm willing to provide reasonable evidence to back-up my statement.
Thanx Jack, for a layman you have plasters for sores, certainly.
Sure you may ask. No, I'm not a christian.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith but didn't follow it rigorously. I don't honestly know whether I ever believed. It all seemed too fairytale.
I looked into some other belief systems but always felt uncomfotable when it came to the supernatural bits, although I found some aspects of buddhism quite interesting.
I eventually came to a point where I had to choose between the supernatural and my own common sense.
Then it was easy since common sense never lets me down.
Regards
Corky
Sure you may ask. No, I'm not a christian.
I was brought up in the Catholic faith but didn't follow it rigorously. I don't honestly know whether I ever believed. It all seemed too fairytale.
I looked into some other belief systems but always felt uncomfotable when it came to the supernatural bits, although I found some aspects of buddhism quite interesting.
I eventually came to a point where I had to choose between the supernatural and my own common sense.
Then it was easy since common sense never lets me down.
Regards
Corky
One Eyed Jack
New member
I have, but I don't save every website I've ever been to, nor do I still have copies of every book I've ever read.
Well, you'd be wrong about that. I was aware of many of these stories before I ever became a young Earth creationist, although until then I didn't realize there were so many. Studying various mythologies has always been a hobby of mine.
I do know what primary source means. The reason I asked what it means to you is because you seemed to want links to them, when many of these stories are simply legends that were passed down orally. So I figured obviously were thinking of something other than what I was thinking of.
It was simply a place to start. If you really want to find something out, you can do a search on that specific topic. Going to a library also helps.
That's not my theory. I never said that. You're trying to erect a strawman here.
I know the world wasn't virtually flat at that time. I never said it was.
I estimate around 30,000. Remember, the Ark was big enough to hold well over 100,000 sheep-sized animals.
450' Ark, if you use an 18" cubit.
They were in the Ark for over a year.
He cursed his grandson -- not his son.
You're not even very familiar with the story. Be honest -- you were never a fundamental Christian were you? If you were, you obviously weren't very studious of the scriptures.
Quite frankly, because you don't know what you're talking about. You get far too many details wrong to have put a serious effort into a study of this matter.
You could have gotten it at a used bookstore for all I know.
It's quite obvious to me that you've never done such a thing. People can say anything on the internet. That doesn't mean it's true.
You've already failed the test, my friend.
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One Eyed Jack
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I'm not a follower of anybody except Jesus Christ. I simply figured Corky would rather watch a video than research all the answers for himself.
No version of the Bible states this. It's just common sense. Why would Noah want to bring full-grown animals on the Ark when juveniles would be much easier to deal with?
That's a Nimitz-class carrier. I was thinking more along the lines of an Independence-class carrier.
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ex_fundy
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Strawman Detected! *** Strawman Detected!
I only asked for a link that provided actual sources for their stories. I never requested "every website" or "every book".
Come on Jack, be reasonable. You gave me a shody link and it required me to follow a path through a bunch of additional shody sites until I found anything resembling a scholarly site. A siite claiming 500 flood myths, naming only 35, telling only 12, and only providing a valid link to the source of 1 of them isn't scholarly.
ex_fundy
New member
So in that case a primary source would simply be the first written version of an event (of which none were referenced in the link you gave me).
Your post that caused me to demonstrate that there were indeed mountains when Noah supposedly built the ark said:
"If all the land on Earth were entirely flattened out, it would be covered with over 10,000 feet of water."
So I'm glad that we both now agree that the world was not flat and real mountains (not mere foothills) existed during the time of Noah. So the challenge of where is all the water still exists.
100,000? Hmm. That would provide just 1.0125 square foot per sheep. Oh wait, I bet you'll theorize additional levels for storing the animals (even though the Bible clearly lists only 3 decks). OK, I'll grant you an additional raised animal level on each major deck (remember the humans had to be able to get to the animals to feed them). So now we have 202,500 sq. ft. (assuming 18" cubits).
Which translation of Genesis 7:2 should I use? Most versions I checked indicate 7-pairs (vs. 7) of each clean kind and 1-pair of unclean. Since I gave you the additional decks without a fight, I'll go with what seems to me is the best translation amongst Hebrew scholars. The birds, referenced in 7:3, have no distinction between clean and unclean. So it appears that Noah was to take 7-pairs of each kind of bird.
Just to reiterate, I asked for your number to include dinosaurs and birds, so those are included in your 30,000 count.
If the above is suitable to you’ll, I’ll perform some further analysis. If not, then I know it’s a waste of my time.
My, I forgot a few things while writing from memory (450’ vs. 425’ is certainly a serious mistake on my part). I will gladly admit that I haven’t bothered to study it for several years (as I was studying more important issues in my 3 year exodus from fundamentalist Christianity). Trivialities such as who Noah cursed after his drunken stupor are completely insignificant to the overall believability of the story.
I am absolutely honest when I claim to have come out of fundamentalism and I’ve offered legally binding evidence to support it. I’ve already discarded my membership certificate, but I could scan some tithing receipts from previous years if you’d like (I think the amounts given will clearly attest to the fact that I was at least financially committed). But I doubt any amount of real evidence could cause a chink in your armor of absolute certitude. Instead, you find it easier to believe in a translated copy of a copy of a copy … of an ancient manuscript that recorded centuries old verbally transmitted legends written by anonymous primitive people, than the current real evidence that I’m offering to prove the legitimacy of my claim.
It’s sad (because I’ve seen what it can do to a person) to see that you are so entrenched in your mindset that you are unable to realize that many people actually think their way out of fundamentalism, just as I have done. While I am glad to admit my current thinking may be in error, I am absolutely certain of which belief system I held for much of the past 26 years. You can pretend to rationalize it by saying I'm making it all up, or I was never saved, or I have some hidden sin, but that doesn’t change the truth – it only provides a false comfort to you mind.
Or it could have come from space aliens. But rather than imagine that I would waste money on a book that I now believe is bunk, it is much more likely that I am simply telling the truth. Should I contact my old college roommate to see if he remembers attending the conference with me when I bought the book? No, even if he remembered, you would probably simply speculate that he too was lying or that I didn’t actually read the book when I bought it.
Boy is that ever true. People can even post extensive web-sites on the internet full of myths and a lot of credulous people will believe it. In fact, I think you’ve already posted links to a few of those sites.
One Eyed Jack
New member
So let me get this straight. You want a link that provides primary sources for every single one of these stories?
Five hundred was only given as an estimate. To my knowledge, only 250 or so have been verified.
One Eyed Jack
New member
So without primary sources, I guess you'll just assume these flood stories were simply made up by the creationists in order to support their claims?
And it would.
I've already told you that. Most of it is in the oceans, seas, and lakes of the world, and pretty much the rest of it is locked in the ice caps and glaciers.
How do you arrive at that figure? I get around 15 cubic feet. 450'x75'x45'=1,518,750 cubic feet which comes out to 15.1875 cubic feet per sheep for 100,000 of them. Of course you'll have to take a little bit out for the decks, but you've still got plenty of room.
No, but I'd imagine there were pens of some sort to hold them in, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that they could easily be stacked.
You seem to be forgetting that the Ark had three dimensions -- not just two. To calculate volume, all three must be taken into account. And remember -- we're not postulating 100,000 animals here, but only 30,000.
It doesn't matter. I already gave you my total estimate.
There are distinctions made between clean and unclean birds. These distinctions might not be made in Genesis, but they're covered under the Levitical laws. In any case, it doesn't matter, because I already gave you my total estimate.
Yes.
As long as you take volume into account, rather than simply floor space, I don't have a problem. Of course, now I've done your work for you, so you might not want to waste your time after all.
Perhaps, but 200 days is a pretty serious error, when they were in the Ark for nearly twice that length of time.
All you've given me is your say-so. Let's just say I didn't find your claims convincing. Maybe you're telling the truth. None of that is relevant to the topic at hand.
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ex_fundy
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Listen, Mr. spinmeister, you have accused me of deception regarding my past and I've offered a scanned image of my Genesis Flood book, a signed affadavit, and scanned images of some of my tithing records to Fundamentalist Christian groups. If you expect any kind of dialog regarding truth I expect you to either recant your accusation outright, accept my offer to present proof, or suggest another kind of evidence. Your ability to admit your own arrogant fallability and accept real evidence is quite relevent to the topic at hand.
So what will it be?
One Eyed Jack
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ex_fundy
New member
Much, much better. Many of the references are from trained practicing Anthropologists that spent time with different people groups. That is exactly the kind of realiable information I was requesting. Though it was your second try, you pulled through.
I'll pick some random references and track them down to see what I can find, but that will have to wait since I'm busy counting the number of sheep in various sized box-cars
Did you know that "The Genesis Flood" contains footnote errors? It makes it really hard to verify things when a quote isn't on the page listed in the footnote.:down:
Jack,
Just another note about your total inconsistency of belief..
You said that before the Flood animals all lived on plants..
Yet earlier you stated that fossils with teeth marks on them were also buried in the Flood !
Hang on now.. what put those teeth marks there... the non-carnivorous animals ???
Ex-Fundy,
BTW I congratulate you on your managing to break away from the crazy spin of Hovind and those other YE charlatans.. I see they can be quite persuasive. I still have hope for Jack.. I don't wnat his faith destroyed.. I just hope one day he realises how much he has been lied to. (trouble is he helps spread this luddite religion to others)
I am curious about 1 thing.. are you still a Christian/Theist ?
Just another note about your total inconsistency of belief..
You said that before the Flood animals all lived on plants..
Yet earlier you stated that fossils with teeth marks on them were also buried in the Flood !
Hang on now.. what put those teeth marks there... the non-carnivorous animals ???
Ex-Fundy,
BTW I congratulate you on your managing to break away from the crazy spin of Hovind and those other YE charlatans.. I see they can be quite persuasive. I still have hope for Jack.. I don't wnat his faith destroyed.. I just hope one day he realises how much he has been lied to. (trouble is he helps spread this luddite religion to others)
I am curious about 1 thing.. are you still a Christian/Theist ?
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