Battle Royale VII Specific discussion thread

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heusdens

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
The second law of thermodynamics tells us that in a closed system, the amount of energy available for work decreases. The total amount of matter and energy doesn't change, but the amount of energy available for work does. When you say the universe isn't going to suffer a heat death, you're denying what science tells us.

Your statement is: the universe is a closed system.

Thermodynamics uses the concept of a closed system, as an idealized system, in which there would not be a thermal interaction between that defined system as a part of the whole, and the rest.

So, I take it that you say here that the universe is an isolated and finite system as a part of the whole that is not in thermal interaction with the rest of universe.

Does that make sense?
 

One Eyed Jack

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Originally posted by heusdens
Your statement is: the universe is a closed system.

It is.

Thermodynamics uses the concept of a closed system, as an idealized system, in which there would not be a thermal interaction between that defined system as a part of the whole, and the rest.

So, I take it that you say here that the universe is an isolated and finite system as a part of the whole that is not in thermal interaction with the rest of universe.

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't.
 

heusdens

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bob's science questions

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
It is.

Not in the way thermodynamics uses the term "closed", which means in isolation of the rest of the universe.

I can tell you a secret. The universe is neither closed nor open.

Since the universe is in no way a finite part of the whole, the reference to it being open or close makes no sense.

No, it doesn't.

Exactly!
 

heusdens

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Mr One Eyed Jack, so you state that the first law of thermodynamics is true in the sense that it means that matter/energy neither can be destructed or created.
Further you state that the second law of thermodynamics is true, and that it is even applicable to the universe as a whole, which means that the universe will constantly reduce the amount of usuable energy.

If we combine those two concepts what we have then is that there is always matter/energy, so this means we can not conceive of a beginning at all, and secondly that the amount of usuable energy is constantly reduced, and will become zero at a certain point in time.

Hence you conclude, if that would have happened in a finite amount of time, such must have already happened!


I shall tell you another secret. I just went outside. And guess what? The sun is still shining, which means there is still some usuable energy left! We are saved!

Go outside Jack! Witness there is a sun, and it still shines! There realy is a sun Jack! It is real!
 
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.Ant

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I shall tell you another secret. I just went outside. And guess what? The sun is still shining, which means there is still some usuable energy left! We are saved!
Riiight...

Heusden, it's useable matter / energy...

Your logic is screwy. You have a number of funny assumptions like "the universe has been around forever", and "something can be neither closed or open".
 

One Eyed Jack

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Heusdens, unless you can show us some other system with which the universe interacts, it is by it's very definition a closed system. I realize that's a big blow to the atheistic worldview, but that's just the way it is.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by heusdens
I shall tell you another secret. I just went outside. And guess what? The sun is still shining, which means there is still some usuable energy left! We are saved!

Go outside Jack! Witness there is a sun, and it still shines! There realy is a sun Jack! It is real!

The Earth isn't a closed system, Heusdens. The universe is.
 

heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Heusdens, unless you can show us some other system with which the universe interacts, it is by it's very definition a closed system. I realize that's a big blow to the atheistic worldview, but that's just the way it is.

No Jack, and you know you are wrong. Cause neither the universe is in any way finite, nor is it part of anything. So therefore it can not be a closed system, cause that would require there be something outside of the universe, with which the universe has no thermal interaction.

Thermodynamics deals with closed systems which are finite and part of a larger system. The universe is not like that, and you know that Jack.

And besides, when you follow the reasoning as I did in the previous post, then how could it be the 'heat death' didn't already occur?

Or you must assume then that - in contradiction to the first law of thermodynamics - matter and energy suddenly appeared from nowhere, with a fixed amount of entropy and then runs down, or you have to accept then that the world is impossible, because the heat death would have already occured.

Which is not the case as you can verify yourself, by witnessing the sun shining.

Somewhere you made a mistake Jack!
 

heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
The Earth isn't a closed system, Heusdens. The universe is.

Right, and I never said it was. In reality there exist NO closed systems. They are idealizations. Every system has thermal contact with the surrounding environment, but it can be reduced to unmeaserable small quantities.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by heusdens
No Jack, and you know you are wrong.

I don't think so.

Cause neither the universe is in any way finite, nor is it part of anything. So therefore it can not be a closed system, cause that would require there be something outside of the universe, with which the universe has no thermal interaction.

Not necessarily. The universe, as a whole, is a closed system.

Thermodynamics deals with closed systems which are finite and part of a larger system. The universe is not like that, and you know that Jack.

It doesn't have to be part of a larger system to be a closed system.

And besides, when you follow the reasoning as I did in the previous post, then how could it be the 'heat death' didn't already occur?

Because the universe had a beginning. Or are you suggesting that it's always been here?

Or you must assume then that - in contradiction to the first law of thermodynamics - matter and energy suddenly appeared from nowhere, with a fixed amount of entropy and then runs down,

That's not a problem when you consider a Transcendent Creator.

or you have to accept then that the world is impossible, because the heat death would have already occured.

Only if the universe has always existed.

Which is not the case as you can verify yourself, by witnessing the sun shining.

Somewhere you made a mistake Jack!

I'm not the one mistaking the Earth for a closed system, which is what you seem to be doing with this argument.
 
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heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I don't think so.

Not necessarily. The universe, as a whole, is a closed system.

It doesn't have to be part of a larger system to be a closed system.

Because the universe had a beginning. Or are you suggesting that it's always been here?

That's what the Big Bang theory says.

Only if the universe has always existed.

I'm not the one mistaking the Earth for a closed system, which is what you seem to be doing with this argument.

Jack, you realy realy have the wrong concepts about reality.

If the universe is as you see it a CLOSED system, then please tell me, if I want to put the universe in a box, how large would that box have to be? You can decide on the measuring units.
Please indicate me how large this box must be, so that we can look at the universe in seperation from the rest.


And explain me one other thing. I just went outside. THE SUN SHINES. It shines for me as well as for you. Have you witnessed the sun shining Jack? Did you see it? Have you seen the light?

Now explain me Jack, why does the sun still shine. It couldn't if your theory is right. All usuable energy would have already be gone. Either that OR the universe would have had to have started at some point in time, isn't it?

Do you know what the first law of thermodynamics says about conservation of matter/energy? It says that they are CONSERVED quantities.

Now please explain me in physical terms as to what would have happened during the Big Bang. Please explain me I am fascinated.
 
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One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by heusdens
Jack, you realy realy have the wrong concepts about reality.

Explain me one thing. I just went outside. THE SUN SHINES.
It shines for me as well as for you. Have you witnessed the sun shining Jack? Did you see it? Have you seen the light?

Now explain me Jack, why does the sun still shine. It couldn't if your theory is right.

It could if the universe had a beginning.

Do you know what the first law of thermodynamics says about conservation of matter/energy? It says that they are CONSERVED quantities.

I know that.

Now please explain me in physical terms as to what would have happened during the Big Bang. Please explain me I am fascinated.

There are various Big Bang models. Some scientists say all the matter and energy just literally popped out of nowhere, and others just say they don't know where it came from. Neither answer is particularly satisfying, but those are the limits we have to work with. If you have a better idea, please tell us what it is.
 

heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
It could if the universe had a beginning.

That is a fascinating theory, but could that have been the case?

There are various Big Bang models. Some scientists say all the matter and energy just literally popped out of nowhere, and others just say they don't know where it came from. Neither answer is particularly satisfying, but those are the limits we have to work with. If you have a better idea, please tell us what it is.

People say a lot of stuff, and scientist are like the rest. But it does not matter how they look on reality, we are here dealing with reality itself Jack.

By the way the "beginning of the universe" is just a popularized thought, which was based on books like "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.
Have you read that book? What does it say about this? Have you read all of it? Does Stephen Hawking "belief" there was a begin of time?

And have you read my mindly excercise on this?
It is here. I can advise you to read it, it is about the most fundamental thing, the very basic layer of our mental perception of the world as a whole, and how we can know about the world.

We are not dealing with something trivial here Jack, it is not a trivial thing to consider at all, it requires us a deeper understanding of reality, of reality itself, and not just on how anyone looks at it or invisions it.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by heusdens
That is a fascinating theory, but could that have been the case?

Because God created the universe. If you want a scientific answer, ask a scientist. Most of them will tell you the universe had a beginning too.

By the way the "beginning of the universe" is just a popularized thought, which was based on books like "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.

I don't think so. The universe was postulated to have a beginning long before Stephen Hawking wrote his book.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by heusdens
Right, and I never said it was. In reality there exist NO closed systems. They are idealizations. Every system has thermal contact with the surrounding environment, but it can be reduced to unmeaserable small quantities.

What does the universe as a whole have thermal contact with, other than itself?
 

bob b

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I would like to remind posters to this thread that it was set up specifically to discuss points raised in the debate by the two gladiators.

In the future postings that wander off the topic will be ruthlessly deleted.

Your friendly Moderator.
 

heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Because God created the universe. If you want a scientific answer, ask a scientist. Most of them will tell you the universe had a beginning too.

You are stuck in such a concept Jack. A concept which has been made at one time, but which is a non-sense concept. It violates all known physical laws, and you know that. It can not and never can be fit into reality.

Matter coming out of nothing for no appearent reason is not something that can happen.

Tell me, suppose that at one time there would have been nothing. And with nothing I mean NOTHING. Nothing at all. No matter, no mind, no consciousness, no spirit, no God.

How could the world then ever come 'into existence'? Show me the physcics of that.

Physics can not do that. It does not work that way. It can never happen.

Stephen Hawking writes in his book, A Brief History of Time : "Physics don't know how to make physical laws from nothing". That is a confession. It in fact states that one can not create something from utterly nothing. All motion all transformation and whatever there CAN occur, always require there to be something instead of nothing.

If you would have read the book "A Brief History of Time" well, you would have known that Stephen Hawking is not writing about the begin of time as such. People belief that, and people belief that because they want to belief that, but that is not what Stephen Hawking writes.

His idea is not about the begin of time as such. What he comes up with is a solution to the ugly nature of the 'singularity'. He therefore assumes that time becomes more 'spacelike' near the singularity, and in that way he overcomes the singularity. It becomes then 'calculable'. But in order to do that, when using complex quantummechanical equations, he needs to introduce another thing. He has to assume that apart from time, which he then calls "real time", he has to introduce "imaginary time". Imaginary here means not something of an imagination, as in something that isn't real but a dream, but imaginary in the sense that it is an independend time axis, which is orthogonal to the normal time axis. And he uses imaginary numbers (which are based on i, the square root of minus 1) to solve the wave equations. Imaginary numbers are used throughout many parts of physical theory, to solve wave equations etc. They are a handy tool for the mathematician, but the term 'imaginary' doesn't mean it is something unreal.
This imaginary time then, does NOT have a begin. In the book Stephen Hawking even says that in fact imaginary time is "more real" then "real time".

So, the "beginning of time" is just a popular translation of that idea. It is based on just one part of it, while trowing away the other. But as such this idea does not and can not state that time as such has had a definite begin. Physics can never work with that. It's a fixiuous idea, which does not belong to the real world.

Stephen Hawking is an atheist. As such he confesses to the idea that the world, the universe, in whatever form has always existed. Nevertheless, Stephen Hawking is a human too. He is dependend for his daily life mostly on his wife, who is a Christian.
For his book to be published, and spread amongst a wide audience, the publisher wanted him to put some theistic ideas in. It would increase the selling of the book. After all, Stephen Hawking is only human.

But if you read the book well, it does not say such a thing as a "begin of time". It can not.


I don't think so. The universe was postulated to have a beginning long before Stephen Hawking wrote his book.

Many philosophers have been contemplated to spread such ideas, indeed. In fact this whole idea is very ancient, and has been discussed over and over throughout history in philosophy.

Amongst them for example was Herr Eugen Duhring, who stated that (based on a idea stolen from Kant, while neglecting the very opposite of that idea, which Kant also mentioned in the same book, and concluding that the one - the universe having a beginning - is as provable as the opposite - the universe having no begin in time) who 'proved' that a universe would have needed a begin in time.

Here is a fabulous critique on that argument, written by Friedrich Engels in the Anti-Duhring (1877) Chapter V. Philosophy of Nature. Space and Time.


And as a final note. Never get yourself completely stuck in the world of ideas. For as we just have showed, it might appear in your head that the world itself is impossible, and is based on some impossible contradiction. If that is the case then you have to ask yourself which one is impossible: your ideas about the world, or the world itself.

If that happens, then for sure stick your head out of the window, and witness the sun. See! It is realy there!

Some or most ideas about the world might be impossible, but never the world itself. You have to remember that.

All that we can know and ever can find out is that we have at some point make the assumption about the world itself.
Does the world just exist entirely within our own mind, can we know all about the world by our mind alone, or do we have to assume at one point that outside of our mind and of our consciousness there is a real world, which is based on some 'unknown' substance we call matter, that existed always.

We can not and never directly know matter. We can not see matter. We can not touch it or detect it. We can only see the various structures and types of specific formations of matter, which are continuously changing, evolving, and transforming.
But we know there is matter, and there has always been matter, cause matter is the essence and primary substance of the world, and forms and shapes the world, without which the world would not exist.
 
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heusdens

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
What does the universe as a whole have thermal contact with, other than itself?

How LARGE is the box you need to put the closed system "Universe" in Jack?

You have an idea in your head about what a closed system is. Then you apply that idea to the universe, and then all of a sudden, all kinds of contradictions arise.

The universe is not something finite, so your very notions that it is just a closed system, but then larger as any closed system you know, is simply wrong.

You know it is wrong cause it can never work that way.

So which is impossible. Your idea or the world?

Did I just imagine there was a sun, or was the sun realy shining?
 
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