Battle Hymn for Bush..

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Art Deco

...You mock God in your ignorance. :angel:

Do I mock the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus by denying their existence or questioning the veracity or utility of the the stories made up by their followers?

Same thing for your deity, Deco. To me he's as imaginary as either of the other two characters and tales told by his followers are worthy of the same level of respect.

 

[Granite]

"Was this before or after God rejected King Saul and and God sent Samuel to anoint David, King of Israel?"

This sidesteps the issue: that David capriciously stole wives from his countrymen, conspired to have them killed in combat, and was an all-around reprehensible cad for most of his life. You can't ignore this. Well, strike that. You can, I guess...

A "divine" mandate centering around a possibly fictional or at least embellished character from Hebrew lore says more about the deity doing the blessing than the man abusing his "divine" mission.

"Only Christophobes and homos give any credence to this falsehood."

Art. David said very, very clearly that Jonathan's love was better than the love of a woman. This DOES NOT mean their relationship was necessarily sexual (it is possible to actually love another man and never, you know, go there). However...
the word ahba, Strong's # 160, can mean "familial" love or the "romantic" variety. The same word to describe how Ammon felt about his sister Tamar before he raped her. So, sorry. The love of David's life was Jonathan (he never speaks of his many wives in these terms, by the way), and the nature of their relationship is slightly cryptic. I don't think it was necessarily sexual; who knows. It doesn't matter. David loved the guy and there is nothing you can say to dispute that fact. (Well, strike that; you're a glutton for punishment, Art, so knock yourself out.)

"I'm sure David insisted that his son ravage his daughter..."

I never said he did. But he did keep his peace and do nothing whatsoever to punish or reprimand Amnon, either. Thanks dad! Think about it, Art. A son of yours rapes his sister, what the world would YOU do? A who-knows-till-you've-been-through-it BS excuse won't cut it, either. David knew the law of Moses. He did nothing whatsoever to bring Amnon to justice. Instead he waited till Absalom murdered the guy and staged a palace coup. The man after God's own heart fouled this up. Period.

As for Shimei: David promised him his life would be spared (1 Kings 2:8). On his death bed, the man after God's own heart utters these last words: "His hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood" (v. 9). This bloodthirsty philandering butcher has one last thought before passing into the great beyond: son, kill that guy who insulted me many years ago.

Sounds like a mobster or thug, to me.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Even if he was a dictator, at least David wasn't a philandering outlaw bandit murderer. Not like the love of his life was a man, or anything. And remember, he wasn't responsible for the death of 70,000 Israelities, either. I mean, David wasn't the kind of guy to keep his peace after his sons went wacky and started, you know, raping their sisters. And he didn't break vows on his death bed and make sure his successor killed an enemy of his, either.

How could you not like this guy?

Originally posted by Art Deco

Only Christophobes and homos give any credence to this falsehood.


Originally posted by granite1010

Art. David said very, very clearly that Jonathan's love was better than the love of a woman. This DOES NOT mean their relationship was necessarily sexual (it is possible to actually love another man and never, you know, go there).

But you certainly meant to imply that their relationship was sexual/romantic when you brought it up. After all, why would you refer to David's close friendship with Jonathan in your list of David's failures? No, you had to use a phrase normally associated with romantic love to make their friendship sound like something wicked.
:troll:

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20​

So, sorry. The love of David's life was Jonathan (he never speaks of his many wives in these terms, by the way), and the nature of their relationship is slightly cryptic.

No, it isn't.

I don't think it was necessarily sexual;

Then you shouldn't have said what you said.

who knows.

Anyone without an axe to grind who has read 1 Samuel.

It doesn't matter.

Yes it does, and you know it. That's why you brought it up.

David loved the guy and there is nothing you can say to dispute that fact.

Why would we?

Now when he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
1 Samuel 18:1

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18

Jesus said to him, [jesus]"'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"[/jesus] Matthew 22:37-39​

Like the Israelites who wrote the Bible and David himself, we do not deny the wicked things that David did. (The fact that they included their failures and in their holy scriptures is evidence that the story is true.) It's just that David's love for Jonathan was in no way wicked. If it had been, the Scriptures would describe it as such.

 

[Granite]

"But you certainly meant to imply that their relationship was sexual/romantic when you brought it up. After all, why would you refer to David's close friendship with Jonathan in your list of David's failures?"

I didn't pose it as a failure: I brought it up because it's a detail of a Christian hero's life that Christians don't really bring up. David and Goliath, becomes king after Saul. This characteristic of David's is not mentioned very often. That's why I mentioned it.

"No, you had to use a phrase normally associated with romantic love to make their friendship sound like something wicked."

The language David himself uses can be construed as romantic: how often have you had a male companion whose love for you is better than a woman's?

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010
...how often have you had a male companion whose love for you is better than a woman's?

When they bring beer and let me have the remote?

:chuckle:

 

[Granite]

:chuckle:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010

I didn't pose it as a failure: I brought it up because it's a detail of a Christian hero's life that Christians don't really bring up. David and Goliath, becomes king after Saul. This characteristic of David's is not mentioned very often. That's why I mentioned it.

Baloney.

The language David himself uses can be construed as romantic:

If one has an axe to grind or a wicked agenda to push, or is just knuckleheaded, yes.

how often have you had a male companion whose love for you is better than a woman's?

I haven't had the privelege to have such a close friendship. But others have. I would guess that is more common of friends who have been through extremely trying times together and stood by one another.

As for the way David and Jonathan became fast friends upon meeting one another, I have experienced that a few times.

 

[Granite]

Turbo, you're the one with an axe to grind. This is in your Bible, remember. You're the one who's defensive. And you're the one who resurrected this thread from the grave just to call me out on the issue of David's love for Jonathan. So, either you have too much time on your hands, or this is a bone you want to pick.

David loved Jonathan, end of discussion, and most Christians aren't aware of this facet of his life. You clearly don't seem to be comfortable with it, either.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010

You clearly don't seem to be comfortable with it, either.

:chuckle: OK, Freud.

Good grief.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Turbo

:chuckle: OK, Freud.

Good grief.

Are or aren't you? You couldn't even let this thread wither on the vine, man. Obviously SOMETHING got to you.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Are or aren't you [comfortable with the fact that David loved Jonathan]?

Of course! Aren't you paying attention?

Originally posted by granite1010

David loved the guy and there is nothing you can say to dispute that fact.


Originally posted by Turbo

Why would we?

• Now when he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
  1 Samuel 18:1
  
  You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18
  
  Jesus said to him, [jesus]"'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"[/jesus] Matthew 22:37-39

Like the Israelites who wrote the Bible and David himself, we do not deny the wicked things that David did. (The fact that they included their failures and in their holy scriptures is evidence that the story is true.) It's just that David's love for Jonathan was in no way wicked. It is had been, the Scriptures would describe it as such.

Originally posted by granite1010

how often have you had a male companion whose love for you is better than a woman's?


Originally posted by Turbo

I haven't had the privelege to have such a close friendship. But others have. I would guess that is more common of friends who have been through extremely trying times together and stood by one another.

As for the way David and Jonathan became fast friends upon meeting one another, I have experienced that a few times.

Originally posted by granite1010

You couldn't even let this thread wither on the vine, man. Obviously SOMETHING got to you.

Yeah.

 

[Granite]

Turbo, quit being such a knee-jerk Bible beater. I doubt David was gay; Alexander may have been bi. These are non-sequitars of yours, thank you. You had a bone to pick, you picked it. Hopefully you feel better about yourself for resurrecting a dead thread and wasting your time.

Your Bible, hoss. Whatever. What's your beef, exactly?