ECT Basic understandings about Faith, and saving Faith. part 1

[Faither]

I'm starting this thread to communicate a basic understanding of Faith to new members and guests. Many are passing through in an attempt to learn something about Faith and how it's applied. It is my hope that through this effort, true, NT, saving Faith, may be rediscovered for the ones God is calling out.

There are two very important words in the Greek language, one is the Greek word "Pistis", the noun which is translated "Faith" in English, and used 244 times in the NT Scriptures. Being a noun, it highlights a person, place, or thing.

The second very important word for Faith is the Greek word "pisteuo". Pisteuo is the verb form of the noun Faith. This word pisteuo is used 248 times in the Greek texts, namely the NT. This word is a verb which is an action word. Pisteuo, is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. This definition of pisteuo does not define the precise act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence, that would result in becoming "in Christ." I'l explain what that specific act is as the thread progresses.

To start this understanding about Faith and faithing, it extremely important to know that when the translators were translating the Greek texts into English, the English language had no word for the translators to use to translate Pisteuo, the verb form of Faith. Thats right, the English language doesn't have a word for the verb form of Faith. This Greek word "pisteuo" could be the most important word the world has ever known , to us desiring to follow Christ.

Normally, to take a noun to a verb in English, we would just add the correct endings. The words the English should have had for the translators are faithe, faither, and faithing. But those are not words that are in the English language. So you could just put yourself in the translators shoes, and sense the gravity of getting the translation of this word pisteuo correct.

I don't know how long they must have searched for the best word available, but they decided to use the words believe, believer, and believing. Now remember, faith is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. Belief in any way shape or form is only a part of the true meaning of faith. Taken by it's own meaning is an error of epic proportions.

And that is exactly what we have in todays churches. This mistranslation of pisteuo has derailed the true definition of this word pisteuo. The true definition of pisteuo in the strongs Greek dictionary is, "Pisteuo means not just to believe, but to be persuaded and place confidence in. Trust, reliance upon , not mere credence, commit unto, be committed unto."

Although the Strongs warns us, pisteuo does not mean to just believe, it's definition of pisteuo does not define the specific act of trust, reliance upon, be committed unto. But the Vines does.
The Vines Greek dictionary defines pisteuo as , "A personal surrender to Him, and a conduct inspired by such surrender." Now remember this definition is what should be communicated every time, instead of the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing . 248 times this mistranslation has occurred in the NT.

I realize that 99.9 % of the bible teachers out there are teaching exactly what is written in their bibles, but whats written is wrong. Nothing will result in just "believing" in Jesus.

The OT had to pictorial words for Faith in Hebrew.

One , was to running to the shelter of a mother birds wings. emphasis on the continual running.

And two, To lean on a staff. emphasis on the continual leaning on the staff, with all your weight behind it. Nothing left back.

The continual surrendering of our lives to Him, and a life inspired by that surrender is NT saving faith. And it has been lost to time and history. May God leed us back to the narrow path.

 

[Faither]

One of the things misunderstood about Faith is that faith is only a religeous act, we perform acts of faith nearly every second of every day on all sorts of things.

Faith being an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence, how many times a day do we perform acts of faith? Faith has got the misunderstanding that it is only something religeous. We as human beings are faithers by nature. Thats basically all we do all day. But though we might be fulfilling acts of faith and faithing all day every day, only one act, based upon one belief, sustained by confidence is NT saving Faith.

I'll discuss that tomorrow.

 

[Faither]

Faith is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence.

What specific act can be performed that can fulfill the starting point of a relationship with God?

It couldn't have anything to do with Gods Word, because one, at the Start of the relationship, Christ, His Spirit, and His Word are not ours to claim. Two, it has to be something that could apply to millions upon millions of people before 1500 when the written word started to be circulated for the masses.

So what could the specific act of faith and faithing be that can start the relationship that still serves those two points. It can't be "believing" in Gods Word, in the beginning it not ours yet. It couldn't be Gods Word because millions of people before the 1500's have never had the exposier to Gods Word.

It should be possible to start a relationship with Christ without even knowing the name of Christ. Before the written Word, God the Father "draws" people to Christ, so if someone was being drawn by the Father to Christ, but they didn't know His name, can they still start that relationship with Christ?

The answer is YES!

Because the application of Faith is the verb "pisteuo" and is " A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." (as per the Vines Greek dictionary)

This act can be fulfilled and honored by God as the start of having a relationship with Christ. This could be done by someone in the year 972 or any year before Gods Word was in circulation. This could also be done before Gods Word is ours to Claim.

We need to rediscover the true act of saving Faith, pisteuo, that has been lost to time and history.

 

[Faither]

Pisteuo or saving NT faith is , "A continual personal surrender to Christ, and a life of decisions that back up that surrender." Not perfect surrendering, but genuine surrendering.


This, Pisteuo is the only tender that will spend in heaven.

If He says in heaven , "i don't you!" It will be because you only "believed" in Him and His Word , but never "faithed" into Him by the daily surrendering of your life to Him.

 

[Faither]

Here are some examples of the faithing (pisteuo) we all do every day.

1) Did you check gravity before you got out of bed this morning? You hop out of bed every day acting on the belief, that you are not going to float up to the ceiling. And you sustain that act, based upon a belief when you stand up and walk.

2) Did you check to see if your legs work before you used them this morning? It's an act of faithing when you act upon the belief that they work and complete the act based upon the belief by actually using your legs. thats faithing.

3)When you put your mail in the mail box today, did you make sure the mailman was going to do his job right today. Or maybe that there was mail service at all? This is Faithing! The act of putting the mail in the mail box, based upon the belief it would go where it's supposed to, sustained by walking away with complete confidense that it would arrive at it's location on time.

I know i could have come up with better examples, breathing, starting your car, going through an intersection trusting that the other person will honor the lights as you do. There are thousands of acts, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense, that we perform everyday. That is what faithing (pisteuo) is. We don't recognize this act as faith because we don't have a word for it in our language.

The Faith or faithing that saves is the act of personally surrendering our life and will to God, with the belief that He will take the surrendered life, and sustained with confident decisions that prove our life is not our own anymore, but His. And that we really are performing or fulfilling the daily surrendering of our life and will to Him, and show God we are genuinely surrendering our life and will to Him.

This is the Faith and faithing that starts the relationship, before the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His Word are ours to claim.

This is the Faith and faithing that maintains the relationship, after we are sealed with His Spirit, Chrsit is ours and being formed in our hearts, and His Word is ours to claim.

This is the Faith and faithing that completes the relationship here on this earth. After God has regenerated us into faithers, that are responding with saving faith. At this point, it is harder to get out of Gods will , than it is to stay in it.

 

[Faither]

True NT saving Faith and faithing, always involves the mind, the emotions, and the will.

 

[andyc]

Good discussion. Makes a change around here.
I've read through your posts and to me what you're explaining is the difference between faith based on natural laws, and faith based on spiritual laws.
This describes the conflict between the natural and spiritual. man. The natural man does not accept the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to him. Faith that a chair will hold my wait, is based on natural logic. Faith that believes for the impossible, from a natural perspective, has to be based on spiritual logic - God. Therefore natural logic is reasoned in the mind, where as spiritual logic is reasoned in the heart (inner man).
With the natural mind I can believe that a tightrope walker could carry me across niagra falls, but because there are no guarantees of success, I wouldn't believe it enough to trust my life on it. In other words, I believe it's a strong possibility based on natural laws, but also reserve caution because there is a chance of failure.
Faith in Christ for salvation, is based on spiritual logic (the words I speak to you are spirit, and they are life), and faith in the heart has to be 100% genuine in the knowing beyond all doubt that God's word cannot fail. Whatever God's word says is absolute, and so corresponding action must be the response from the heart.

 

[Faither]

Good discussion. Makes a change around here.
I've read through your posts and to me what you're explaining is the difference between faith based on natural laws, and faith based on spiritual laws.
This describes the conflict between the natural and spiritual. man. The natural man does not accept the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to him. Faith that a chair will hold my wait, is based on natural logic. Faith that believes for the impossible, from a natural perspective, has to be based on spiritual logic - God. Therefore natural logic is reasoned in the mind, where as spiritual logic is reasoned in the heart (inner man).
With the natural mind I can believe that a tightrope walker could carry me across niagra falls, but because there are no guarantees of success, I wouldn't believe it enough to trust my life on it. In other words, I believe it's a strong possibility based on natural laws, but also reserve caution because there is a chance of failure.
Faith in Christ for salvation, is based on spiritual logic (the words I speak to you are spirit, and they are life), and faith in the heart has to be 100% genuine in the knowing beyond all doubt that God's word cannot fail. Whatever God's word says is absolute, and so corresponding action must be the response from the heart.

Hey andyc,

Although i'm in agreement with the first three quarters of your post, you lost me at " not having any doubt ". Thats kind of what we've been brought up to understand that real true Faith is not having even a thought of doubt, or we have failed.

True Faith the noun, and faithing the verb, applied to have a relationship with Christ is , "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." (per Vines) If we were to have no doubt that Christ would accept our surrender, that would be a perfect surrender, when a genuine surrender is what he's looking for from His called out ones.

The second half of the Greek definition of the Greek word pisteuo is important also, in that we are going to make thousands of decisions that show God if we really are surrendering our life and will to Him. Now , every decision we make is not going to be perfect, without any doubt, and it doesn't need to be. God looks at the heart, and makes a judgement every day to whether we are "in Faith", and will be given the chance to move forward in the Salvation process.

Faith and faithing are an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense. We can have doubt and still fulfill the act of Pisteuo, which is a continual surrendering of our life and will to Christ, and living a life inspired by that surrender.

 

[andyc]

Hey andyc,

Although i'm in agreement with the first three quarters of your post, you lost me at " not having any doubt ". Thats kind of what we've been brought up to understand that real true Faith is not having even a thought of doubt, or we have failed.

True Faith the noun, and faithing the verb, applied to have a relationship with Christ is , "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." (per Vines) If we were to have no doubt that Christ would accept our surrender, that would be a perfect surrender, when a genuine surrender is what he's looking for from His called out ones.

The second half of the Greek definition of the Greek word pisteuo is important also, in that we are going to make thousands of decisions that show God if we really are surrendering our life and will to Him. Now , every decision we make is not going to be perfect, without any doubt, and it doesn't need to be. God looks at the heart, and makes a judgement every day to whether we are "in Faith", and will be given the chance to move forward in the Salvation process.

Faith and faithing are an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense. We can have doubt and still fulfill the act of Pisteuo, which is a continual surrendering of our life and will to Christ, and living a life inspired by that surrender.

Yeah I can understand what you're say, but it is your assertion that faith is an "act", which needs a little clarifying. Let's use an example as to what I mean.

Mark 11:23 "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

Now we know that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, which nicely fits in with this verse.
And so we have the believing inspiring the speaking, but it is not the act that brings about the things hope for into reality, it's the believing in the heart when acting.
So if faith is the substance of something you haven't yet got, there is no specific act to bring it about, just the assurance that the substance is coming.

 

[Faither]

Yeah I can understand what you're say, but it is your assertion that faith is an "act", which needs a little clarifying. Let's use an example as to what I mean.

Mark 11:23 "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.

Now we know that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, which nicely fits in with this verse.
And so we have the believing inspiring the speaking, but it is not the act that brings about the things hope for into reality, it's the believing in the heart when acting.
So if faith is the substance of something you haven't yet got, there is no specific act to bring it about, just the assurance that the substance is coming.

Before we can get into that deep of a discussion concerning Faith and faithing, or pistis and pisteuo in the Greek, we need to be on the same page. I'm sensing you didn't read my previous posts, if you wouldn't mind re-reading them it will save me from having to repeat them over again.

Doubt is a product of the mistranslated words , believe, believer, and believing. It has spawned this misunderstanding that unless we have a doubtless belief concerning anything about God, it's a failed belief.

 

[Faither]

Andy, there's alot of info in those posts, but i'm going to jump head and assume your not going to agree with what i wrote. In that case, it's not me you would be disagreeing with but facts that i'll present below.

If you would address each of these it would give me a sense of where you are.


Facts,

1) The English language has no verb form of the Noun "Faith".

2) The Greek verb for Faith, "pisteuo", was mistranslated into the English Bibles.

3) The Strongs Greek dictionary gives the disclaimer, right at the beginning of defining what pisteuo means. It says and i quote, "Pisteuo means not just to believe."

4) Although the strongs doesn't define NT saving faith, the Vines does. I quote, " A personal surrender to Him, and a conduct inspired by such surrender."

These 4 facts are not my opinion, they are facts that must be foundational building blocks to true NT saving.

 

[andyc]

Andy, there's alot of info in those posts, but i'm going to jump head and assume your not going to agree with what i wrote. In that case, it's not me you would be disagreeing with but facts that i'll present below.

It's not that I don't agree, and I think it's a good thread. Where people will benefif by what you're saying, is if you'd provide scriptural examples to give people and idea specifically what you're explaining.

If you would address each of these it would give me a sense of where you are.


Facts,

1) The English language has no verb form of the Noun "Faith".

Well obviously it depends on the context of each verse. The word "trust" maybe adequate. The English language maybe weak where the idea is understood that a corresponding action is demanded where there is a specific belief.
The man with the demon possessed son said, "I believe, help my unbelief". The man did believe, otherwise he wouldn't have brought his son to Jesus disciples, but he also had unbelief.

2) The Greek verb for Faith, "pisteuo", was mistranslated into the English Bibles.

Again it depends on context.

Another example.

Matthew 8:13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

"Believe" in this verse is obviously talking about trust. And so the translation is not wrong, but it may be weaker than the Greek due to the weakness of the language.

3) The Strongs Greek dictionary gives the disclaimer, right at the beginning of defining what pisteuo means. It says and i quote, "Pisteuo means not just to believe."

Once again it depends on context, and I agree there will be instances where the English is going to be weak, but not necessarily wrong. It would be good if you could provide examples showing where you see the translation as being wrong.

4) Although the strongs doesn't define NT saving faith, the Vines does. I quote, " A personal surrender to Him, and a conduct inspired by such surrender."

These 4 facts are not my opinion, they are facts that must be foundational building blocks to true NT saving.

I'm not out to prove you wrong, but to understand where you're coming from.
As I said, a great discussion.

 

[Faither]

This is an extremely difficult understanding to explain to people for a multitude of reasons. I've been trying explain it to people for over 10 years, and thats with 30 years under my belt at a Stanford university level teacher.

you should know, that i've had the experience of what happens when someone does exactly what i'm trying to explain. But i won't use that as a tool to try and persuade or strong arm someone into accepting my understanding. I will use only facts, that have to be either accepted or rejected.

If your serious about having a real discussion, indulge me by allowing me to leed you down a path that will provide foundational understandings to build on.

Are you familiar with Rom 8:9 ?

In Romans 8:9 it states, "Now if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His."

Hopefully we can keep this to yes or no answers, as to be able to keep the momentum moving forward.

Do you agree with what Rom. 8:9 states ? That if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, He is not ours?

 

[andyc]

Yes I'm with you.

 

[Faither]

Yes I'm with you.

Ok, pretty straight forward, right?

Now the next step i'm asking you to take , is if i don't have the Spirit of Christ, and Christ is not mine, then His Word can't be mine either. correct?

 

[DAN P]

This is an extremely diffi
Do you agree with what Rom. 8:9 states ? That if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, He is not ours?

Hi , and IF you LOSE your salvation , do you still have the Spirit ??

How will you get the Spirit BACK ??

dan p

 

[Faither]

Yes I'm with you.

Andy, I want to say take whatever time you need to answer these questions so to speak as we travel this road. I'm unloading 30 years of daily thinking and understandings really fast on you , and i had a Stanford university Dr. for a teacher. So take the time you need, i'm going to reserve my comments for you only until you say otherwise.

I've tried to explain this with quite a few others here and it didn't turn out so well. I blame myself for not being able to communicate this better. My ignore list is in double digits.

 

[andyc]

Ok, pretty straight forward, right?

Now the next step i'm asking you to take , is if i don't have the Spirit of Christ, and Christ is not mine, then His Word can't be mine either. correct?

Yes, Im still with you.
The natual man cant receive the things of God.

 

[andyc]

Andy, I want to say take whatever time you need to answer these questions so to speak as we travel this road. I'm unloading 30 years of daily thinking and understandings really fast on you , and i had a Stanford university Dr. for a teacher. So take the time you need, i'm going to reserve my comments for you only until you say otherwise.

I've tried to explain this with quite a few others here and it didn't turn out so well. I blame myself for not being able to communicate this better. My ignore list is in double digits.

No problem.
It's refreshing to have a more interesting topic to discuss. Faith is something I've meditated on for years.
Even the bible translators have particularly been confused about how they translate passages involving faith. The NIV's decision to use terms like "litle faith" instead of "unbelief", has contradited passages. For instance, if Jesus criticized his diciples for having little faith, he wouldnt have then gone on to explain that they only needed faith as a mustard seed (little faith). And so there has to be a purity of faith. Its not about quantity.
So youre right about there being confusion in the understanding of faith from how translators interpret situations.

 

[Faither]

No problem.
It's refreshing to have a more interesting topic to discuss. Faith is something I've meditated on for years.
Even the bible translators have particularly been confused about how they translate passages involving faith. The NIV's decision to use terms like "litle faith" instead of "unbelief", has contradited passages. For instance, if Jesus criticized his diciples for having little faith, he wouldnt have then gone on to explain that they only needed faith as a mustard seed (little faith). And so there has to be a purity of faith. Its not about quantity.
So youre right about there being confusion in the understanding of faith from how translators interpret situations.

Good point, your talking about MT. 14:31, where Christ tells His disciples , "O ye of little Faith, why did you doubt." The word for "little Faith in the Greek is 3640 in the Strongs and means little of Faith. This word was only used by the Lord as a tender rebuke.