Balder On Morals

[Ecumenicist]

Sorry, Chileice, I have actually been meaning to reply to it. You entered the conversation more politely, so your post doesn't stir up the same urgency to respond. You know how it is: unfortunately, it's the contentious posts that attract the most energy.

It seems to me that you are taking a middle ground between my position and Nineveh's. You admit that God allows certain things to happen and develop, using those things as a means of judgment.

The idea that he allows certain calamities to befall, for certain purposes, suggests that he is actively working in history also to prevent other calamities, directing things behind the scenes. Is this how you see it?

In my own arguments, I have not been saying that the people who attack, pillage, and rape other nations are without personal responsibility for their actions. I am just saying that the person who "uses" the actions of evil people for his own purposes also bears some responsibility for what is done, especially if he knows before hand exactly what it is they will do.

Best wishes,

Balder

Does / did God use the nations, or was God willing to take responsibility for these
actions?

The Bible is a witness, in the OT the prophets observe that God takes
responsibility for the most heinous, evil actions of humanity, even the actions
of nations outside Israel / Judah. In Christ, the gesture is cast into the fulfilled
light, yes God does take full responsibility...

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, I don't think your rebuttal is that compelling, which is why I'm not taking it more seriously. Maybe you just have to find a more convincing way to present it.

In other words, you can't conceive of the notion there is rebuttal to your charges. You haven't even tried to address anything I have said. It took you what? 4 posts to even bother to check on the context, then you dismiss context as if it has nothing to do with it. You are more than content to build your doctrine on one sentence. As I suspected, this was a waste of time, just like the last few times you brought these charges against God and were refuted. Please know, the next time you level these silly charges against God, you are being willfully ignorant. And if I happen upon them, I'll offer you this thread to continue the attempt at dialog on the issue.

You are the one who seemed to be identifying all pagans as human sacrificers

That's a lie. But then again, you will most likely consider yourself justified, as context means nothing.

 

[Balder]

I am not saying that context means nothing. I have given you the context of God's actions throughout the Bible and you are ignoring it.

My questions to you in my last post were not rhetorical. I really am interested in your response to them.

About my "lie" -- this is the second time I've been called a liar, without justification. Where is the lie in what I said?

 

[Nineveh]

I am not saying that context means nothing. I have given you the context of God's actions throughout the Bible and you are ignoring them.

No, balder, what you are doing is going through the Bible to pick out more sentences out of context instead of addressing the bigger picture which I have offered you repeatedly.

Here it is in a nutshell.

God hates sin.
People love sin.
God chose His people.
His people followed other gods.
God called them back over and over.
They refused and worshed idols.
God turned away from them and let their idols be their god.
All He said would happen to them at the hands of the pagans they followed happened.

Who is to blame? Those that follow idols. Same as today. God still thinks sexual immorality is a sin. People bask in sexual immorality. Never mind God tells us not to partake in sexual immorality because it's bad for us. It leads to undesired consequence like disease, death, kids without parents, etc. None of this is God's fault, balder, He warns us away from things that are bad for us. It's the same recurring theme you are ignoring. From Hosea, to Zechariah to today. Same/same.

About my "lie" -- this is the second time I've been called a liar, without justification. Where is the lie in what I said?

Cut and paste where I said all pagans participate in human sacrifice. When I see my own words, I'll apologize, when I don't, I'll expect you to apologize.

 

[Balder]

And you appear to be ignoring the recurring theme of God actively doing things to judge people -- hardening hearts, sending plagues and famines, calling down fire, bringing floods, etc.

 

[Nineveh]

And you appear to be ignoring the recurring theme of God actively doing things to judge people -- hardening hearts, sending plagues and famines, calling down fire, bringing floods, etc.

Once again, you can't even entertain the idea people bring judgement down on their own heads. How many more times around this mulberry bush, balder?

 

[Balder]

Yeah, I get the idea of people reaping the fruits of their own actions. It's called karma. But an intervening God who "gathers" or "stirs up" nations is not required for this to work. Why even mention God doing anything to effect certain events, if that's not what's going on -- or not what the Biblical authors think is going on?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Balder,

Genuine curiosity, does the Universe take an active or passive role in karma?

Or is it just willing to take resonsibility for it

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Yeah, I get the idea of people reaping the fruits of their own actions. It's called karma. But an intervening God who "gathers" or "stirs up" nations is not required for this to work. Why even mention God doing anything to effect certain events, if that's not what's going on -- or not what the Biblical authors think is going on?

What, did you want me to cut and paste my reply again? Why should I? You'll just ignore it again.

Anyway, about the only thing here we might make some progress on is:

You: About my "lie" -- this is the second time I've been called a liar, without justification. Where is the lie in what I said?

Me: Cut and paste where I said all pagans participate in human sacrifice. When I see my own words, I'll apologize, when I don't, I'll expect you to apologize.

 

[Granite]

Once again, you can't even entertain the idea people bring judgement down on their own heads. How many more times around this mulberry bush, balder?

Even if you're right and these people have it coming, does God enable humans to bring judgment or does he actively take a part in the actual judging? That seems to be the difference: whether he takes a passive or active role in doling out judgment.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Does / did God use the nations, or was God willing to take responsibility for these
actions?

The Bible is a witness, in the OT the prophets observe that God takes
responsibility for the most heinous, evil actions of humanity, even the actions
of nations outside Israel / Judah. In Christ, the gesture is cast into the fulfilled
light, yes God does take full responsibility...

Dave

BTW for the negreppers who need literal translation:

Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself...

 

[Nineveh]

Even if you're right and these people have it coming,

"Have it coming"? That's not what I have said. What I have tried to point out, is there are consequences to actions.

does God enable humans to bring judgment or does he actively take a part in the actual judging?

In certain circumstances He delegates authority to judge, as to governments (Rom.) and His saints (1 Cor). and sometimes reserves judgement for Himself (Rev). However, balder wants to believe God has to force enemy nations to go against Israel at any given time, as if this is some miracle God needs to perform to bring about "judgement". When in reality these "judgements" were first warnings to Israel of what would happen when Israel's enemies came against them and their chosen gods were the ones to provide their protection. These were warnings to get Israel to turn back to God before these things happened, not that they were condoned by God.

That seems to be the difference: whether he takes a passive or active role in doling out judgment.

Context is key

 

[Nineveh]

BTW for the negreppers who need literal translation:

Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself...

Dave, enough.

Go tend your own threads.

 

[Granite]

"Have it coming"? That's not what I have said. What I have tried to point out, is there are consequences to actions.



In certain circumstances He delegates authority to judge, as to governments (Rom.) and His saints (1 Cor). and sometimes reserves judgement for Himself (Rev). However, balder wants to believe God has to force enemy nations to go against Israel at any given time, as if this is some miracle God needs to perform to bring about "judgement". When in reality these "judgements" were first warnings to Israel of what would happen when Israel's enemies came against them and their chosen gods were the ones to provide their protection. These were warnings to get Israel to turn back to God before these things happened, not that they were condoned by God.



Context is key

So did they not have this judgment coming or not? Don't split hairs, Nineveh: either they deserved this or they didn't. Either they had it coming or they didn't. Either their women should have been raped, or they shouldn't have been. When talking about mass rape and slaughter it's important to know whether or not the people had done something to warrant their treatment. I don't care what you've done, but here's my two cents: being raped or having your infant ripped from your belly isn't something anyone deserves.

Question: does the Lord ever condemn the nations for the atrocities they committed against Israel?

Question: under what circumstances is the murder and rape of a woman by a foreign soldier an appropriate judgment today?

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, would you say that the example in Zechariah of God's judgment is in a different category altogether from those other forms of judgment I mentioned -- the plagues, pestilences, famines, floods, fires from the sky, slaughter of firstborn children, etc?

 

[Nineveh]

So did they not have this judgment coming or not?

When Israel turned from God, they were basically under the protection of the idols of the gods of the pagans God told them not to worship. It's like getting an STD from being a slut. Did the slut "have this judgement coming"?

Don't split hairs, Nineveh: either they deserved this or they didn't. Either they had it coming or they didn't. Either their women should have been raped, or they shouldn't have been. When talking about mass rape and slaughter it's important to know whether or not the people had done something to warrant their treatment. I don't care what you've done, but here's my two cents: being raped or having your infant ripped from your belly isn't something anyone deserves.

And it's not something God wanted for Israel. Hence His repeated warnings for them to be loyal to Him and not chase after pagan idols.

Question: does the Lord ever condemn the nations for the atrocities they committed against Israel?

Answer: God is going to judge everyone.

Question: under what circumstances is the murder and rape of a woman by a foreign soldier an appropriate judgment today?

Answer: Never. Rapists are capital criminals, are you going to continue to lay what happens to Israel under the leadership of pagans at God's feet, even when He warns them repeatedly?

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, would you say that the example in Zechariah of God's judgment is in a different category altogether from those other forms of judgment I mentioned -- the plagues, pestilences, famines, floods, fires from the sky, slaughter of firstborn children, etc?

Balder, I'm going to reply in the same way you have been replying to me on this whole thread.

Anyway, about the only thing here we might make some progress on is:

You: About my "lie" -- this is the second time I've been called a liar, without justification. Where is the lie in what I said?

Me: Cut and paste where I said all pagans participate in human sacrifice. When I see my own words, I'll apologize, when I don't, I'll expect you to apologize.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, you are so darned stubborn. I give up. You won't answer simple questions. You've evaded the simple questions from the start. The only context you want me to take account of is your particular interpretation. You think your interpretation "exists" in the Bible itself, but it is just the particular way you choose to hold certain elements.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it squares with the other things I've been bringing up. I'm asking you to be more specific, and to answer specific questions. Since you won't, I'm leaving this thread alone -- and leaving you with your stubborn opinion.

 

[Nineveh]

Balder, you are so darned stubborn. I give up. You won't answer simple questions. You've evaded the simple questions from the start. The only context you want me to take account of is your particular interpretation. You think your interpretation "exists" in the Bible itself, but it is just the particular way you choose to hold certain elements.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it squares with the other things I've been bringing up. I'm asking you to be more specific, and to answer specific questions. Since you won't, I'm leaving this thread alone -- and leaving you with your stubborn opinion.

And besides that, you still can't bring yourself to apologize, can you?

 

[Granite]

When Israel turned from God, they were basically under the protection of the idols of the gods of the pagans God told them not to worship. It's like getting an STD from being a slut. Did the slut "have this judgement coming"?



And it's not something God wanted for Israel. Hence His repeated warnings for them to be loyal to Him and not chase after pagan idols.



Answer: God is going to judge everyone.



Answer: Never. Rapists are capital criminals, are you going to continue to lay what happens to Israel under the leadership of pagans at God's feet, even when He warns them repeatedly?

Comparing someone who gets an STD from unprotected sex to a pregnant woman whose belly is shredded because she or her neighbor worshipped a statue is apples and oranges, Nineveh. You can't and aren't giving straight answers on this thread because either option (God as Enabler or God as Director) is rather uncomfortable. You seem to lean towards God as Enabler, something akin to letting your children wander into traffic to get pulverized because he wouldn't listen to your warnings. The problem, however, is that scripture often depicts God as driving the car (the first born of Egypt, as an example). When he says "I will" in Zechariah vis a vis this coming judgment it's hard to see what else Jehovah could possibly mean. If he said "I will let" such-and-such happen it'd be one thing.

And now I've got a problem: I asked when the rape of foreign women is an appropriate modern punishment and you said "never." So was it appropriate in the past and why?