ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by kidd94

Ok.

So your "pre-belief" state was what? A sinner who knew nothing of God. A sinner that did not know he was a sinner?

Correct. :thumb:

You had to have had some type of "belief" system before you "Believed", right?

Nope. :nono: Believe in what? The things of this world? OK. You could say I was once lost shaped by worldly things. But now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see.

So how did you know that you went from a "sin" state of belief to a "saved/elected" state of belief

The invasion of the Holy Spirit upon my life making me realize I was a sinner and that I offending the Almighty God. I was moved to confess my sins, and was told that when I did, He would forgive me and make me righteous like His Son.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Well, it was never man's decision to be damned. It is man's nature to love darkness and hate light. He didn't wake up one day and say "I think I wanna go to hell."

The doctrine of Total Depravity is vital to understand if a believer wants to grow to know the power and sovereignty of the Almighty God. And since man is depraved, he is unable to accept or understand God.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

...both Jews and Greeks are all under sin as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one'. Romans 3:9-12

So I think that explains very well who is responsible for our salvation. And you can only deduce that it is not man.

Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

That isn't what I asked.

I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Knight

Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

That isn't what I asked.

I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?

slightly off topic, i just want to say congrats to knight on reaching 10k posts!

way to go :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

slightly off topic, i just want to say congrats to knight on reaching 10k posts!

way to go :thumb:

Look at that purple star glimmer!

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Knight

Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

That isn't what I asked.

I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?

C'mon Knight. You know I will not bow out and fit into your ideology on that.

Man has a responsibility if he rejects God. And he will be judged accordingly and cast into the Lake of Fire.

The flip side to the coin is that when God chose particular men unto salvation, they weren't responsible for that choosing. God even gave them the faith to believe. They could not resist His sovereign election. That IS the defining point of the word grace, and how misunderstood it is among modern-church goers.

There is nothing a man can boast about when it comes to his salvation. Arminians/Open Theists believe you can though. I would argue that they have no idea as to what grace is. But you go to their churches and they preach a "Salvation by Grace." (a twisted form of it)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Swordsman

C'mon Knight. You know I will not bow out and fit into your ideology on that.

Man has a responsibility if he rejects God. And he will be judged accordingly and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Uhg.... why is it you Calvinists cannot find it within yourself to answer that question consistently?????

If man can do nothing of himself (which you assert) it only follows he has no responsibility in his eternal destination for heaven OR hell.

So there you have it folks yet one more in the long line of Calvinists that assert man has no ability to make a choice.... but IS responsible for the choice as long as it's the WRONG choice. And therefore God has predestined the majority of souls to hell and to be held eternally responsible for a choice they had no ability to affect. :kookoo:

You continue...

There is nothing a man can boast about when it comes to his salvation. Arminians/Open Theists believe you can though. I would argue that they have no idea as to what grace is. But you go to their churches and they preach a "Salvation by Grace." (a twisted form of it)

LOL... it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood the arguments.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Knight

Uhg.... why is it you Calvinists cannot find it within yourself to answer that question consistently?????

You mean consistant with your perception of it. :chuckle:

If man can do nothing of himself (which you assert) it only follows he has no responsibility in his eternal destination for heaven OR hell.

Book, chapter, verse please.

So there you have it folks yet one more in the long line of Calvinists that assert man has no ability to make a choice.... but IS responsible for the choice as long as it's the WRONG choice. And therefore God has predestined the majority of souls to hell and to be held eternally responsible for a choice they had no ability to affect. :kookoo:

And it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood what Calvinism teaches about predestination. But I would expect nothing less from one of Enyart's sheep.

You continue... LOL... it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood the arguments.

Great comeback! Did that make you feel good to say that to me? Or were you just out of words and felt the need to sling a little mud my way?


Let me ask you something now.

With everything in your life up until now, are you accountable for? If so, did you choose to be born? Did you choose to be born in the USA? Did you choose your personality/character traits you have? What about your parents? Did you choose how you would be reared?

 

[kidd94]

Originally posted by Swordsman
I was moved to confess my sins, and was told that when I did, He would forgive me and make me righteous like His Son.

You were moved to confess your sins. At any time prior to this moving, did you decide that you should move to confess your sins?

See what I am getting at is that there has to be at one point in time, when you conciously decide that yes, I am a sinner, I am lost, going to hell, that you decide that you want to remove yourself from that condemned state by accepting with your heart and proclaiming with your mouth that Christ is Lord.

The words you use SM sound as if everything was done unconciously... As if you went to bed one, and got up the next morning and realized you were saved. The whole experience of getting saved was almost like a dream. As if you had no control over the circumstances at all.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Swordsman

You mean consistent with your perception of it. :chuckle:

I mean consistent as in using logic.

You continue...

Book, chapter, verse please.

:ha: Your theology isn't in the Bible! That's the point.

You continue...

And it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood what Calvinism teaches about predestination. But I would expect nothing less from one of Enyart's sheep.

Have I mentioned Bob? No?? I haven't have I?

I expect an apology and a retraction. That was beyond rude.

You continue...

Let me ask you something now.

With everything in your life up until now, are you accountable for?

Huh??? That didn't make sense.

You continue...

If so, did you choose to be born? Did you choose to be born in the USA?

No... and no. So what?

Did you choose your personality/character traits you have?

To some extent yes. So what?

What about your parents? Did you choose how you would be reared?

To some extent yes. And my parent had a great deal of responsibility in those decisions. So what?

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Knight

:ha: Your theology isn't in the Bible! That's the point.

:thumb: Keep reading your Bible, partner.

Have I mentioned Bob? No?? I haven't have I?

I expect an apology and a retraction. That was beyond rude.

You are a follower of his aren't you?

OK then. How was that rude?

Let's move on.....

Huh??? That didn't make sense.

I asked you are you accountable for everything in your life up until now and you don't understand the question?

Its just a question Knight. I'm not drilling you.

No... and no. So what?

So you admit you didn't choose to be born nor where you were born. Good. At least you understand that.

To some extent yes. So what?

I don't agree here. Your personality traits are yours whether you like them or not. They make you who you are. I don't think you woke up one day and decided you wanted to be a belligerent, homosexual bashing open theist. It was obviously in His divine plan.

To some extent yes. And my parent had a great deal of responsibility in those decisions. So what?

And I disagree here as well. You made no choice at all in your childhood how your parent would rear you.

My point is, is that its all by the grace of God we are who we are. Its by the grace of God I wasn't born in Afghanistan. Its by the grace of God I wasn't reared by two lesbian moms. Its by the grace of God my parents taught me Christian values at a young age.

So you see, grace goes a long way. It isn't something us puny little humans can decide to get. If you believe that, then you don't understand grace. Simple. Accept it. Embrace it.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by kidd94

You were moved to confess your sins. At any time prior to this moving, did you decide that you should move to confess your sins?

No.

See what I am getting at is that there has to be at one point in time, when you conciously decide that yes, I am a sinner, I am lost, going to hell, that you decide that you want to remove yourself from that condemned state by accepting with your heart and proclaiming with your mouth that Christ is Lord.

And that merely was my response to the faith God granted me. I did not initiate my salvation. He did.

The words you use SM sound as if everything was done unconciously... As if you went to bed one, and got up the next morning and realized you were saved. The whole experience of getting saved was almost like a dream. As if you had no control over the circumstances at all.

Ah, but the dream has yet to begin. I long for the day He comes back to take His saints with Him.

My control only goes as far as God allows it to. His grace was irresistible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Swordsman
My point is, is that its all by the grace of God we are who we are. Its by the grace of God I wasn't born in Afghanistan. Its by the grace of God I wasn't reared by two lesbian moms. Its by the grace of God my parents taught me Christian values at a young age.

And then isn't the flip side true as well (according to you that is)

Wouldn't it also be accurate to state (from your perspective.....)

My point is, is that its all by the grace of God we are who we are. Its by the grace of God that some people are born in Afghanistan and become terrorists. Its by the grace of God I wasn't some people are raised by two lesbian moms. Its by the grace of God some peoples parents taught them no values at a young age and later became wicked adults.

Isn't the flip side a logical extension of your theology?

If not.... why not?

 

[kidd94]

Originally posted by Swordsman
And that merely was my response to the faith God granted me. I did not initiate my salvation. He did.

Why did you choose to respond?

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Knight

And then isn't the flip side true as well (according to you that is)

Wouldn't it also be accurate to state (from your perspective.....)

My point is, is that its all by the grace of God we are who we are. Its by the grace of God that some people are born in Afghanistan and become terrorists. Its by the grace of God I wasn't some people are raised by two lesbian moms. Its by the grace of God some peoples parents taught them no values at a young age and later became wicked adults.

Isn't the flip side a logical extension of your theology?

If not.... why not?

Actually you're nearing the target but still missing. It really isn't by the grace of God those things occur, but it is by the will of God. He only extends His grace to His beloved, not to the damned. And I'm pretty sure you agree with this, my dear friend Knight.

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by kidd94

Why did you choose to respond?

I'd use a different word over "choose". Because I didn't choose. I responded because the gift of faith was imparted to me and His grace pulled me in like a tractor beam. I couldn't resist His loving, saving grace.

What are you trying to prove here anyway? That one can freely choose God? You Arminians have been trying to do that for centuries.

 

[kidd94]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I'd use a different word over "choose". Because I didn't choose. I responded because the gift of faith was imparted to me and His grace pulled me in like a tractor beam. I couldn't resist His loving, saving grace.

What are you trying to prove here anyway? That one can freely choose God? You Arminians have been trying to do that for centuries.

I wouldn't call myself Arminian... I didn't even know the difference between Calvin and Arminius until a few years ago or what those terms meant...

I find Calvinism to be very intresting, but in my spirit, I can't agree with everything. Nor is Arminianism fully correct nor anyone else as a matter of fact... I don't think anyone has the perfect box for God yet.

We all believe in predestination.... You have to, or you believe that God is not Sovreign, thus not making him God. The difficult part is trying to understand how our dominion over this earth, and our ability to make conscious decisions aligns itself with God who knows all things. I have contemplated this many times and at best I can only summize that we really don't know how to define God in an absolute theology.

If we are all, predestined to Heaven or Hell, with no ability to change who we are, then how can we stand condemned on the day of judgement when we would be able to point the finger back at God. Morally, that is not a just, fair and loving God, and I think most people will agree. But you SM, confuse me and others by saying that we are responsible for our own condemnation, but yet you are not responsible in anyway for your own salvation. You were mearly drawn to it like a mosquito to the blue light...confused:

 

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by kidd94

I wouldn't call myself Arminian... I didn't even know the difference between Calvin and Arminius until a few years ago or what those terms meant...

I find Calvinism to be very intresting, but in my spirit, I can't agree with everything. Nor is Arminianism fully correct nor anyone else as a matter of fact... I don't think anyone has the perfect box for God yet.

And I don't agree with all of Calvinism either. I'm more of a 4 1/2 pointer if there is such a thing. hehe.....

We all believe in predestination.... You have to, or you believe that God is not Sovreign, thus not making him God.

Actually, most believers do not believe in predestination. Spend more time here on TOL and observe the non-belief.

The difficult part is trying to understand how our dominion over this earth, and our ability to make conscious decisions aligns itself with God who knows all things. I have contemplated this many times and at best I can only summize that we really don't know how to define God in an absolute theology.

Nicely put. Our finite minds can't (in this world) understand the things of God. One day, I believe His people will.

If we are all, predestined to Heaven or Hell, with no ability to change who we are, then how can we stand condemned on the day of judgement when we would be able to point the finger back at God. Morally, that is not a just, fair and loving God, and I think most people will agree.

You might want to do some more studying on predestination then. "Predestined to Hell" is never mentioned in the Scriptures. Only those who are predestined are those who are foreknown. (see Romans 8:29-30) And those who are foreknown, are the ones He loved from the foundation of the world. So, effectually, He doesn't predestine everybody. It ties in with foreknowledge. So, you have a large group of people (called the reprobate) who are not "known" by God.

But you SM, confuse me and others by saying that we are responsible for our own condemnation, but yet you are not responsible in anyway for your own salvation. You were mearly drawn to it like a mosquito to the blue light...confused:

Those whom are condemned deserve it because they are sinful. In fact, we all deserve such a condemnation. (see Ephesians 2:3) It really wasn't fair that God chose any unto salvation. You might ask why does God choose some and not the others. The only one who knows this answer is God Himself. It is for His glory though.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Swordsman

My point is that man IS responsible for his actions. And that includes lust. If one has issues with lust, he doesn't need to go eat at Hooters. Likewise, Christian females do not need to be exposing themselves.

I thought you thought it's all part of God's design. God predestines that men will lust; they have no control over the matter. And Hooters was God's idea. And if a Christian woman dresses immodestly it's because God specifically designed her wardrobe before time began.

Is there any part of that with which you disagree ?

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Turbo

I thought you thought it's all part of God's design. God predestines that men will lust; they have no control over the matter. And Hooters was God's idea. And if a Christian woman dresses immodestly it's because God specifically designed her wardrobe before time began.

Is there any part of that with which you disagree ?

Hi :turbo:

I know this isn't directed at me, but I do have a response

While everything is predestinated, man is still held accountable for his actions. This may sound like a contradiction, but this is how God set I believe God set it up.

 

[Swordsman]

Christine and Turbo, but I never agreed everything is predestined. What Calvinist ever said every all things are predestined. No one. But the feeble-minded Arminian can't Only His elect are predestined to receive His love and therefore be eternally His.

You're trying to put words in my mouth Turbo, and you know it. Man is responsible for all that he does. And furthermore, it all comes naturally for man anyway. My sinful nature isn't something I acquired on my own. I was born with it. You were too. Embrace that Turbo.

Point being, you will come to grips with it. In these days, or before the judgement seat of the Almighty God.

ARGHH!!!!! Now do you know why Open Theism makes me furious.

All these misconceptions they throw out:
Predestined to hell?
Choosing God?
God doesn't know all?
God is not eternal?
Man has free-will apart from God's will?
ARGHH!!!

Did the Holy Spirit impart these "truths" to you? Or is it just something that sounded good while you were reading Boyd, or Enyart, or any other heretical author?