ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Z Man]

Godrulz,

I asked you 3 questions:

• 1) Who are the thirsty?
  
  2) How do they know that they are thirsty?
  
  3) And, how do they know, assuming they somehow found out that they are thirsty, that God will fulfill that thirst?

to which you poorly answered.

Originally posted by godrulz

This is a call to 'ALL' (not the so-called 'elect') who are thirsty to come (cf. Jesus calling ALL who were weary and heavy laden...He gives rest). It may primarily refer to wandering Israel in this context with application to the world.

I'm not referring to Isaiah 55: I'm refering to the general - Who are the thirsty?

I think your answer was 'ALL'? Is this correct? Am I to assume that you define the thirsty as everyone?

They know they are thirsty by the work of the Spirit convicting and convincing of truth. There is also a God-shaped vacuum. We know when we are physically thirsty or hungry. This is built into us. Likewise, men know they are spiritually empty and search for God as He draws them. God Himself deals with us to know that we are empty and need Him.

I'm guessing this was your answer to #2. Your answer, as I see it, is that people know they are thirsty by the work of the Spirit drawing them to God Himself, correct? In other words, God convicts us and we become 'aware' of our thirst. Am I right? A yes or no will do.

God reveals Himself as the one who will fulfill the thirst. Jesus called for us to come to Him for life, light, water, bread, etc.

And this must be your answer to #3. This does not answer my question at all. I asked how do people know that God will fulfill thier thirst. Your answer was that God reveals it to them. That's great for my position, but according to you, 'we are responsible to seek Him and call on Him' of our own.

If God is the one who reveals to ALL that we are thirsty, THEN reveals to us that He is what will ultimately quench our thirst, why isn't everyone 'quenching their thirst' in Him? If a doctor tells everyone that they are sick, and then reveals to them that he has the cure, why wouldn't everyone be healed?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

if our wills are predestined, then how can the first part of the verse be correct? would not the Lord have predestined the heart and what then would the man plan? how is the man doing any planning if God predestined it? doesn't then this verse actually argue against the predestination of all things? how else can we honestly say that it's the man who plans his way?

You, like Clete, falsly assume that God predestining things means that He directly controls that particular thing that was predestined.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

You, like Clete, falsly assume that God predestining things means that He directly controls that particular thing that was predestined.

if it was determined before i was born (thus predestined, i.e. predetermined) that i would plan in my heart to conquer the world, what makes that statement true before i am born? in other words, since i don't exist and am not determining anything myself, what is determining that i will plan in my heart to conquer the world? remember, it can't be me because i do not exist.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

if it was determined before i was born (thus predestined, i.e. predetermined) that i would plan in my heart to conquer the world, what makes that statement true before i am born? in other words, since i don't exist and am not determining anything myself, what is determining that i will plan in my heart to conquer the world? remember, it can't be me because i do not exist.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Genesis 20:5-6
"In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have [taken Sarah, Abraham's wife]." And God said to [Abimelech] in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.


God ordained it, from the beginning of time. And when you were born into the world, you willingly planned to conquer the world, just as God predestined.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Genesis 20:5-6
"In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have [taken Sarah, Abraham's wife]." And God said to [Abimelech] in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.


Z Man: God ordained it, from the beginning of time. And when you were born into the world, you willingly planned to conquer the world, just as God predestined.

I don't think that will do, though, because in these verses God acts to bring about the result, God does not say "I knew you would be set apart," and in the second verse, we are shown that God is acting directly even more: "I kept you from sinning."

As God said to Jeremiah, after he said "I set you apart":

Jeremiah 1:12 "... for I am watching over my word to perform it."

Or more literally, "I am watching over my word, to do it"...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

for the record, this verse applies only to Jeremiah.

Genesis 20:5-6
"In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have [taken Sarah, Abraham's wife]." And God said to [Abimelech] in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

and i do not see the relevence of this verse.

God ordained it, from the beginning of time. And when you were born into the world, you willingly planned to conquer the world, just as God predestined.

but you aren't answer my question. if God ordained/predestined/predetermined it from the foundation of the world, what makes it true at the foundation of the world? what makes that statement true? who is giving it truth value? what makes it true?

if it's at the foundation of the world, what else is around but God? would not God be the one making that statement true? and if he is making it true, then it is not myself who is doing it. and if i'm not the one doing it, in what sense am i ever doing anything if it's all ordained from the foundation of the world?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

I do believe that everything is predestined, yes, including our wills.

Right, and in one sentence you destroy your entire premise. Thank you.

But it doesn't mean that we suddenly have urges and seem to 'supernaturally' do things that we really and truly do not wish to do; as if we are puppets on a string who are being pulled this way and that AGAINST the very course of actions we wish to take.

How can you not see the contradiction in this statement? Talk about having you mind blown! Your mind seems to have blown something alright!
The only reason (according to your own statements) that we don't do things against our will is because our wills were predestined along with our actions! Of course they wouldn't be in conflict if that we the case! But that just makes what we do all the more meaningless and without moral culpability, we don't even have control over our own wills, never mind our actions!

Everything that we do, every decision we make, we do it because we want to do it.

But not because we chose to want to but because our wants were predestined, right?

But it was predestined long before our time.

"It" meaning the action, but the point is that our will, our desire was predestined as well. (Again, according to your view, not mine.)

Just because God ordains/predestines something doesn't mean He's forcing people to do that certain thing AGAINST their will.

You're wrong! He's forcing them to have their wills against their will. I know that doesn't sound like it should make any sense but that's the silly notion that you are putting forward.

That's where your invalidness lies - your assumptions are wrong in that area.

My assumptions were and are dead on correct, as you have demonstrated with this post.

When you assume that God ordaining things means that He's forcing people to do things against their will, I imagine someone who is bound from head to toe and who is completely paralyzed all over their body. And God comes along and directs every move of the individual, whether the individual wishes to do those things or not. All the person can do is watch as their life is 'pulled along on strings' by God. That's not the case.

No it isn't, it's worse than that. Their very desire to do evil is what God has predestined. Every evil thought and intent of their predestinedly wicked heart was conceived first in the mind of God and placed there by Him. What a truly disgusting theology!

When God ordained/predestined that Judas should live and betray Jesus Christ, He never 'forced' him to commit his sins.

Judas was never predestined to betray Jesus, nor was anyone else. You are reading more into the text than is there.

Judas willingly betrayed Christ.

You got this right at least!

God created/ordained/predestined the life of Judas for this very reason.

This is a lie! You cannot establish this with Scripture at all. Again, you are reading into the text things that simply are not there.

Nevertheless, Judas was responsible for his own, selfish desires that lead to his sins.

Judas was completely responsible because he volitionally chose his own course, period.

God doesn't 'force' people to do anything - He doesn't have to!

Precisely right!

We all do what we wish.

Excellent! That's three things you've gotten right!

But what we wish is exactly what God predestined from the beginning.

If this is so then we cannot be held responsible for our own desires nor the actions spawned by them. If God punishes anyone for having a thought in their head that He placed there Himself then He is fundamentally unjust and wicked.

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

You cannot use this as any sort of proof text for Calvinism (predestination) without reading into the text more than is there. You cannot do it, predestination very simply is not taught in this passage.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

You, like Clete, falsly assume that God predestining things means that He directly controls that particular thing that was predestined.

Are you suggesting that there is something outside of God's direct sovereign control?
If so, what would that be, exactly?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Before you were born does not mean before you existed.
As I said, you read into the text Z Man.

Genesis 20:5-6
"In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have [taken Sarah, Abraham's wife]." And God said to [Abimelech] in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

Again, there is nothing here that teaches predestination! God is able to influence us, yes, of course He is, but that is not at all the same as predestination.

God ordained it, from the beginning of time. And when you were born into the world, you willingly planned to conquer the world, just as God predestined.

Which of these verse teaches this? Neither! You read it into them both.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Clete--God exercises His judgment against men by with holding from them the measure of common grace that would have held them up above the level of what they are in themselves.

You ask me to prove this biblically?? Suggestion--you try to disprove it against the proof you requested.

The fact that the Bible does not teach such a thing is all the proof I need. Besides, you are the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

Do you understand Romans chapter one?

Yes, very well.

Do you understand what Paul meant when he three times (verses 24, 26, and 28), after the people had defiled their knowledge of Him said, "therefore, God gave them up..."?

Yes, God allowed them to not only be evil but to be very evil and to experience the natural consequences of their actions. Romans chapter 1 does not say one single word about predestination.

Do you know what the Psalmist was saying in Ps.81:11,12?

He's saying just what it seems like he is saying. God let Israel do their own thing because they wouldn't listen to, or have anything to do with Him. That's pretty much exactly what it says isn't it?

Psalms 81:11 "But My people would not heed My voice,
And Israel would have none of Me.
12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart,
To walk in their own counsels.

13 "Oh, that My people would listen to Me,
That Israel would walk in My ways!
14 I would soon subdue their enemies,
And turn My hand against their adversaries.
15 The haters of the Lord would pretend submission to Him,
But their fate would endure forever.
16 He would have fed them also with the finest of wheat;
And with honey from the rock I would have satisfied you."

Sounds like a pretty terrific proof text for the Open View to me! Are you sure that you aren't on my side of this issue? You keep giving me ammunition!

There is your proof. Now find an argument against that proof.

What I find disheartening is that I believe that you really do consider what you've presented here as real proof and that it would have been difficult for me to counter such an argument. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Determinism relies on deductive reasoning, eisegesis, proof texting, assumptions vs inductive reasoning, exegesis, context, and valid conclusions.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Determinism relies on deductive reasoning, eisegesis, proof texting, assumptions vs inductive reasoning, exegesis, context, and valid conclusions.

I agree with the thrust of this statement but it seems you have a different understanding of deduction vs. induction.

Deduction produces (if done properly) certainty whereas induction only produces generalities (generally speaking, of course ).

Why do you find the latter more compelling than the former?

Deductive Reasoning

Inductive Reasoning

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I agree with the thrust of this statement but it seems you have a different understanding of deduction vs. induction.

Deduction produces (if done properly) certainty whereas induction only produces generalities (generally speaking, of course ).

Why do you find the latter more compelling than the former?

Deductive Reasoning

Inductive Reasoning

Resting in Him,
Clete

For Biblical study, where would you get your premises from for making a 'deductive' conclusion about a passage in the Bible?

Clearly, and obviously, it is more efficient and sound to study the Bible inductively than deductively. Surely you know that, no?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

for the record, this verse (Jeremiah 1:5) applies only to Jeremiah.

Is that how you interpret when reading the Bible?

• That passage doesn't apply to me, so I should forget about it; it has no need to be included into my theology.

Must be nice to pick and choose what works for you and what doesn't...

and i do not see the relevence of this verse. (Genesis 20:5-6)

This passage flies in the face of your argument that we cannot be reponsible if God ordains it. We see that Abimilech's innocence was due both to his responsibily of his integrity, and because God withheld him from sinning.

but you aren't answer my question. if God ordained/predestined/predetermined it from the foundation of the world, what makes it true at the foundation of the world? what makes that statement true? who is giving it truth value? what makes it true?

if it's at the foundation of the world, what else is around but God? would not God be the one making that statement true? and if he is making it true, then it is not myself who is doing it. and if i'm not the one doing it, in what sense am i ever doing anything if it's all ordained from the foundation of the world?

You make a huge leap from God predestining things before the foundation of the world to suddenly, He's the only one making it 'true', thus you are not responsible. This 'new' argument of yours doesn't even make sense. I don't think I understand you clearly enough to make a valid comment.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Is that how you interpret when reading the Bible?

• That passage doesn't apply to me, so I should forget about it; it has no need to be included into my theology.

Must be nice to pick and choose what works for you and what doesn't...

why wouldn't you do that? why would you take something written to a completely different audience and conclude that it's written personally to you?

This passage flies in the face of your argument that we cannot be reponsible if God ordains it. We see that Abimilech's innocence was due both to his responsibily of his integrity, and because God withheld him from sinning.

i have not studied that passage in depth and as such cannot conclude what it is saying.

You make a huge leap from God predestining things before the foundation of the world to suddenly, He's the only one making it 'true', thus you are not responsible. This 'new' argument of yours doesn't even make sense. I don't think I understand you clearly enough to make a valid comment.

ok, let me see if i can do this slowly. you say that all things have been ordained from the foundation of the world right?

so let us go back to that point, the foundation of the world. now what exists at this point? surely nothing except God because it's the foundation of the world.

so, if we take an example of what is to come, like my planning to conquer the world, that God has just finished ordaining, what is it now (at the foundation of the world) that is making that thing ordained true? what gives the statement "so and so will plan to conquer the world" truth value? what is the determining factor?

what makes sure that it will come to pass at the present time? since it's the foundation of the world, and only God exists, then can we not conclude that God is the one making the statement true and is thus the determining factor? is he not making that true and thus bringing it to pass himself?

and if he is the one bringing it to pass, how can you say that i am the one bringing to pass? if God is the one determining it, then how can i be the one determining it? how can a verse read "a man plans in his heart" if it is God who plans what is in his heart and has already ordained what he will plan?

hopefully that makes more sense.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

For Biblical study, where would you get your premises from for making a 'deductive' conclusion about a passage in the Bible?

Clearly, and obviously, it is more efficient and sound to study the Bible inductively than deductively. Surely you know that, no?

The major premise, that God exist, as well as several others must be presupposed.

The Impossibility of Atheism

Read the above linked thread and you'll understand why.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I agree with the thrust of this statement but it seems you have a different understanding of deduction vs. induction.

Deduction produces (if done properly) certainty whereas induction only produces generalities (generally speaking, of course ).

Why do you find the latter more compelling than the former?

Deductive Reasoning

Inductive Reasoning

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think Calvinism relies on assumptions and preconceived ideas and reading them back into the text. It has the conclusion and then looks for support to back it up. There is a place for this, but the support must be sound. Your link shows fallacies and weaknesses with this view.

Induction does not start with the conclusion. It looks at the evidence and then formulates its conclusions.

We need both types of reasoning. It is better to not start with a conclusion and then try to support it. We will tend to skew the evidence to match our conclusions. If we start with the evidence and see where it leads us by way of conclusion, we may be less biases.

e.g. Calvinists start with the idea that God's sovereignty means that he predestines and controls everything. They then find proof texts and arguments to support this (deductive).

We start with the idea that God appears to predestine some things, but not all things. This is the inductive evidence. Then we form the conclusion that sovereignty does not mean He controls, predestines, or decrees everything, but that He only does so with some things. Therefore, sovereignty is not meticulous control but providential control.

There is a place for both deductive and inductive, depending on the need.

I could use deductive reasoning to prove the Deity of Christ. Chances are I would have used inductive evidence to conclude that Jesus is God in the first place.

I tend to see deduction as prone to eisegesis, while induction starts from exegesis.

There is a trend toward inductive preaching. Jesus seems to do this. He gives truths and illustrations and then comes to a conclusion. This involves and captivates the audience and brings them along to ownership of the conclusion. Much modern preaching is deductive. We announce our conclusion and then try to prove it with 3 points. We start with a text as a launching pad, and then rely on human reasoning to prove our conclusion. Expository preaching exposes the text= exegete and apply. Topical sermons are more deductive and less Word-centered.

My understanding might not be precise on deduction vs induction, but I hope that clarifies somewhat.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The major premise, that God exist, as well as several others must be presupposed.

The Impossibility of Atheism

Read the above linked thread and you'll understand why.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think we could look at the evidence that would lead to theism or we could assume theism and support it with the evidence. Could we not support the conclusion from either direction?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Right, and in one sentence you destroy your entire premise. Thank you.

Not if we can agree that the Bible is the ultimate authority and regard it as being absolutely true. In that case, we must conclude that we are responsible, and yet, God is completely sovereign. Both are taught in Scriptures.

If you truly reject this argument because it does not follow logically, then you cannot tell yourself that you believe in the Bible 100%, because that would be an informal fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority".

How can you not see the contradiction in this statement? Talk about having you mind blown! Your mind seems to have blown something alright!
The only reason (according to your own statements) that we don't do things against our will is because our wills were predestined along with our actions! Of course they wouldn't be in conflict if that we the case! But that just makes what we do all the more meaningless and without moral culpability, we don't even have control over our own wills, never mind our actions!

Do what you wish Clete. But what you do is what God ordained.

But not because we chose to want to but because our wants were predestined, right?

Both.

You're wrong!

Prove it, Scripturally.

He's forcing them to have their wills against their will. I know that doesn't sound like it should make any sense but that's the silly notion that you are putting forward.

My assumptions were and are dead on correct, as you have demonstrated with this post.

Maybe, but I'm not interested in your 'assumptions'. What does the Bible say? I've proven my case Scripturally so far, but I fail to see where you have proven yours. Running around screaming that I'm illogical might work on a philosophy debate website, but may I remind you that this is a theological debate site. Scripture is the 'top dog' here, not logic. Sometimes, God just doesn't make sense...

No it isn't, it's worse than that. Their very desire to do evil is what God has predestined. Every evil thought and intent of their predestinedly wicked heart was conceived first in the mind of God and placed there by Him. What a truly disgusting theology!

It's Biblical:

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

1 Kings 22:20-23
And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

Judas was never predestined to betray Jesus, nor was anyone else. You are reading more into the text than is there.

This is a lie! You cannot establish [that Judas was predestined] with Scripture at all. Again, you are reading into the text things that simply are not there.

John 6:70-71
Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

If this is so then we cannot be held responsible for our own desires nor the actions spawned by them. If God punishes anyone for having a thought in their head that He placed there Himself then He is fundamentally unjust and wicked.

Who are you to declare such a thing?

Trash bags are not a 'pleasant' thing. They were created for one purpose only; to help us manage the trash by holding it in it's space, making it convient for us to get rid of our garbage. Gasoline stinks and is very flammable. Yet we create it for the sole purpose of burning it, so that we may get around in our cars and be warmed in our homes. None of these things have the right to 'complain' (assuming they could). How much more greater than do you NOT have the right to declare God unjust or wicked for anything He deciedes to create, whether it be a person to 'take out the trash', or for someone to display His glory upon, either way, He is right!

He is the Creator, we are the created, so I suggest you watch your mouth...

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

You cannot use this as any sort of proof text for Calvinism (predestination) without reading into the text more than is there. You cannot do it, predestination very simply is not taught in this passage.

Not saying it is. This passage simply illustrates to us that yes, we do plan our ways, and yes, God directs every movement we take. We are responsible and God is completely sovereign.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

why wouldn't you do that? why would you take something written to a completely different audience and conclude that it's written personally to you?

Ok, maybe Jeremiah 1:5 is not DIRECTLY meant for you, personally, in that it does not mention your name. But it does establish very important theological points that work for me, but against your beliefs:

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Before Jeremiah walked the face of the earth and done any sort of action, whether it be good or evil, God ordained/predestined that he would be a prophet for Him. God sanctified him before he was born! God also states that He knew Jeremiah, before He even 'formed him in the womb'. Essentially this tells us that:

• 1) The future does exist
  
  2) God predestines/ordains without regard to any evil or good that may have been done (in other words, its not our will, but His that chooses)

i have not studied that passage in depth and as such cannot conclude what it is saying.

What a cowardly way to stand down in the face of Scriptural scrutiny; declare ignorance. Figures...

ok, let me see if i can do this slowly. you say that all things have been ordained from the foundation of the world right?

so let us go back to that point, the foundation of the world. now what exists at this point? surely nothing except God because it's the foundation of the world.

so, if we take an example of what is to come, like my planning to conquer the world, that God has just finished ordaining, what is it now (at the foundation of the world) that is making that thing ordained true? what gives the statement "so and so will plan to conquer the world" truth value? what is the determining factor?

what makes sure that it will come to pass at the present time? since it's the foundation of the world, and only God exists, then can we not conclude that God is the one making the statement true and is thus the determining factor? is he not making that true and thus bringing it to pass himself?

and if he is the one bringing it to pass, how can you say that i am the one bringing to pass? if God is the one determining it, then how can i be the one determining it? how can a verse read "a man plans in his heart" if it is God who plans what is in his heart and has already ordained what he will plan?

hopefully that makes more sense.

No, it actually doesn't.

First, you falsly assume that there was nothing EXCEPT God before the foundation of the world. Can you prove that? Next, you make such an elaborate explanation as to the 'loneliness' of God before the foundation of the world that somehow leads to Him being the only one responsible for anything that goes on today, since He predestined it back then. I still don't see how you can make such a huge leap from God predestining before the 'foundation of the world' to you not being responsible for your actions. Next, you falsly assume that God is intertwined with time. The world in which we live may be in 'time', but God certainly isn't bound by it. There wasn't a point in time that God suddenly came up with the idea to 'predestine' future events. When we use the word 'predestination', it's just an expression - a word - that we use to comprehend the Sovereignty of God's thoughts and motives - His will, if you may. His ways for what shall be took precedent above ours way before we were ever created.