Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
When you come to Jesus to be saved, you come to God,...to the SPIRITS OF MEN MADE PERFECT.
That is who you are coming to when you come to Jesus to be saved.
You who tell others to read the whole scripture, do you read the whole scripture? Made perfect is already used, and not in the sense you are implying.
Mat 5:46-48 KJV
(46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
(47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1Jn 4:12 KJV
(12) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
It is also used in the sense of being raised from the dead, not of living or existing before being raised.
Luk 13:32 KJV
(32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Heb 11:39-40 KJV(39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Two different meanings supported by scripture, neither one of them is the one that you insist upon. Either one (or both) are perfectly compatible with "the saints are not in heaven today."
Perhaps you would care to show us a passage that tells us that Enoch went to heaven? Or to explain why Paul was so mistaken as to tell us that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises, but that they, without us, should not be made perfect?
When you claim that your words themselves speak for God, you are claiming the status of a prophet. If your words ignore the scripture and speak contrary to it, then we have the test for our prophet already cut out for us. Should we believe every prophet? I think we should hold them accountable.
I'll try one more time: would you be willing to engage in conversation in a more calm and logical manner, perhaps being respectful enough of scripture to respond to it directly when it is given for a response? Would a little extra civility harm you in any way?
We see that Moses lived after the death of his body.
Mark 9:2-6
The Transfiguration
2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
There's not much to gain by debating you. As is you're an angry person who has declared that she loves to argue for the sake of argument. There is something to gain by bringing the focus to what matters more, the weightier matters of the law, the fruits of the spirit, Godly love, respect, etc.
I have realized in times past that I was perhaps too aggressive in how I responded to people. I may not be perfect yet, but I know that this is the direction we should be moving. If you want to "prove" that you understand, then show us by actions. From this point forwards, that's what counts.
I have been posting about it, but you don't see it because you were too distracted by trying to judge me.
Enoch was taken up to heaven in his spirit. He did not experience the physical death of the body.
Hebrews 11:5 Through faith Enoch was taken from the earth so that he did not see death, and he could not be found, because God had taken him; for before he was taken we have evidence that he truly pleased God.
Or to explain why Paul was so mistaken as to tell us that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises, but that they, without us, should not be made perfect?
Enoch didn't receive what was promised while he was alive on earth. It doesn't mean Enoch didn't give sacrifices to God. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God and since Jesus died on the cross, no one has to offer sacrifices.
I speak what the scriptures say. What do you think you speak? Do you think you are speaking God's Truth or Satan's lies? Would you like to answer that question, Accuser?
OrShould we believe every prophet? I think we should hold them accountable.
I'll try one more time: would you be willing to engage in conversation in a more calm and logical manner, perhaps being respectful enough of scripture to respond to it directly when it is given for a response? Would a little extra civility harm you in any way?
We see that Moses lived after the death of his body.
Mark 9:2-6
The Transfiguration
2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” 6(He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
No, but we do know that Jesus called this a vision.
Mat 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Even if that were the literal Moses and not part of a vision, it would say nothing about whether Moses was alive before (or after) that occurrence, and it certainly wouldn't establish that he was in heaven at any time (that vision took place upon the earth, not in heaven.)
I have been posting about it, but you don't see it because you were too distracted by trying to judge me.
Enoch was taken up to heaven in his spirit. He did not experience the physical death of the body.
Hebrews 11:5 Through faith Enoch was taken from the earth so that he did not see death, and he could not be found, because God had taken him; for before he was taken we have evidence that he truly pleased God.
There's not much to gain by debating you. As is you're an angry person who has declared that she loves to argue for the sake of argument. There is something to gain by bringing the focus to what matters more, the weightier matters of the law, the fruits of the spirit, Godly love, respect, etc.
I have realized in times past that I was perhaps too aggressive in how I responded to people. I may not be perfect yet, but I know that this is the direction we should be moving. If you want to "prove" that you understand, then show us by actions. From this point forwards, that's what counts.
No, but we do know that Jesus called this a vision.
Mat 17:9 KJV
(9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Even if that were the literal Moses and not part of a vision, it would say nothing about whether Moses was alive before (or after) that occurrence, and it certainly wouldn't establish that he was in heaven at any time (that vision took place upon the earth, not in heaven.)
The spirits of just people go to heaven. I gave scripture proving that.
Tell me this, when do people go to heaven then if not after they die.
This is for you:
Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Why don't you go further? You will be even more rebuked:
Hebrews 11:15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
"Enoch lived sixty-five years and begot Methuselah. After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years and had sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years." (Genesis 5:21-23)
You refute it too when you say our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies.
Why do you refute it? Why not tell us what you think that scripture means?
I believe it means Enoch did not experience the death of his body because God took him to heaven in the spirit and his physical body was done away with in the manner God chose.
We know no one went physically to heaven, only Jesus did that.
Our spirits live on after the death of our bodies and many scriptures say that.
The same author that penned Hebrews 11:5 above lists Enoch among those who died in faith, not having received the promises. He gives us a short list of examples, five in fact, and among them Enoch is number two. If we pull one verse out of context it won't convey the intended meaning.
Heb 11:4-13 KJV
(4) By faith Abel.offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
(5) By faith Enoch.was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
(11) Through faith also Sara.herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
(12) Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
He says that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, also Sarah, these all died in faith, not having received the promises.
Spoiler
He specifically chose these examples to convey that "these all" died in faith, so if we grant that he isn't going to contradict himself, "translated that he should not see death" isn't going to conflict with "Enoch died in faith." It's very important to consider context in these types of passages. For example,
Joh 8:51 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
In John, the charge of contradiction is resolved because we know that Jesus is speaking of the second death, not the first.
Rev 2:11 KJV
(11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
So consider the case of Enoch. He was not, for God took him. He was translated that he should not see death. His son's name means "his death shall bring" and the flood that wiped all living flesh that breathed air off the face of the planet coincided with the death of his son. Yet we are told that Enoch died without receiving the promises. Any interpretation we reach needs to account for all our information.
Could "that he should not see death" mean "that he would not see God destroy the earth with a flood?" Maybe. Could it mean that God took him so he would not see death at the hands of evil men? Perhaps that also. I'm inclined towards the second meaning. Perhaps some of both.
Isa 57:1 KJV
(1) The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
But we are told that Enoch is among those who died. That's something we can't just ignore.
5) By faith Enoch.was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Now read that verse along with the other two that say he was translated and didn't see death.
If you still conclude that he did not go to be with GOD then we have nothing further to speak about regarding it.
We disagree.
My position on the matter is verified with at very least three verses specifically stating that he did not die.
By faith Enoch was translated G3346 that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated G3346 him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning G3346 the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Transfigured is used in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2, but when Jesus was transfigured, he remained upon the earth.
You refute it too when you say our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies.
Why do you refute it? Why not tell us what you think that scripture means?
I believe it means Enoch did not experience the death of his body because God took him to heaven in the spirit and his physical body was done away with in the manner God chose.
We know no one went physically to heaven, only Jesus did that.
Our spirits live on after the death of our bodies and many scriptures say that.
I never said our spirit doesn't live on after physical death.
You are confused.
I said I don't think we instantly go to heaven upon physical death; not that our spirit or soul doesn't live upon the death and after the death of our physical body.
I'm not going to accuse you.
I understand that it was miscommunication; most likely due to my own incomplete or hasty response to a question or notion.
To be clear; I do not refute the fact that there is a heaven or that those pleasing to GOD are either there now or will be at some later time.
I never said our soul or spirit doesn't live on past our death.
