ARCHIVE: The "Great tribulation" and the Testimony of the Early Church Fathers

[Jerry Shugart]

ARCHIVE: The "Great tribulation" and the Testimony of the Early Church Fathers

The following is the testimony of several of the early church fathers in regard to the “great tribulation” and the coming of the antichrist.First,we will examine the teaching of Irenaeus,who studied under Polycarp,who was a pupil of the Apostle John.

Surely Polycarp knew whether or not the “great tribulation” had come to pass,especially considering the fact that he studied directly under the man who wrote the Revelation.And if Polycarp knew,then we can rest assured that Irenaeus also knew.And by the words of Irenaeus it is clear that he believed that the “great tribulation” remained in the future,as well as the coming of the antichrist.This means that he did not believe that the “great tribulation” occurred in AD70:

“…in which Temple the enemy SHALL sit,endeavoring to show himself as Christ,as the Lord also declares:’But when you see the abomination of desolation,which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet,standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),thenlet those who are in Judea flee into the mountains…”(Irenaeus,“Against Heresies” 5.25.2).

“Daniel too,looking forward to the end of the last kingdom,i.e.,the ten last kings,amongst whom the kingdom of those men SHALL be partitioned,and upon whom the son of perdition SHALL come…”(Irenaeus,“Against Heresies” 5.25.3).

Although the testimony of the early church fathers was not inspired,it is clear that Irenaeus was certain that the “great tribulation” had not yet occurred,and he was writing at a point in time that was less than one hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.Common sense tells us that if the “great tribulation” had in fact occurred in AD70,then men living so close in time to this event would know for sure if it had occurred or not, and if the antichrist had come or not!

In fact,almost all of the early church fathers were of the opinion that the coming of the antichrist remained in the future.Therefore,they did not believe that the “great tribulation” happened in AD70.

Tertullian (AD 145-220): “And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet MAY wage war on the Church of God…”(“On the Resurrection of the Flesh,Chapter 41).

Hippolytus (170-236): “Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary,John also speaks this: ‘And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven…’ That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half the week] during which the tyrant IS to reign and persecute the Church (“Treatise on Christ and Antichrist”,Chapters 60,61).

Those who lived closest to the time of AD70 and did not believe that the “great tribulation” occurred in AD70 reads like a whose who of the early church fathers—Irenaeus,Tertullian,Hippolytus,Cyprian,Cyril of Jerusalem,John Chrysostom—the list goes on and on.How could all these men be in error concerning an event that was supposed to occur so close to the time in which they lived?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[knee-v]

I'm not trying to equate the early church fathers with the pharisees, but how did they miss the coming of the Messiah when they were living in the very time that Daniel said he would be around. It can happen.

I know you realize that men's opinions, creeds, etc. take a back seat to scripture. But as close as those men were to the first century, I can't help but see a 3 1/2 year triulation for those in Judea corresponding to the destruction of the Temple in AD70.

If I'm not mistaken, in at least one place the trib is said to be 42 months long. Let's see here. March of 67 through September of 70. Carry the 1. Um... Ah! 42 months. Now I know that that doesn't conclusively prove anything, being only one example, but the testimonies of scripture and history seem to scream preterism, church fathers or not.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Someone conveniently forgot about Eusebius and the fact that nearly all of the early church fathers appropriated the promises to Israel to the Church. Ooops, sorry that this snake bites you too. Some people should know better than to wield two-headed vipers.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jerry your post is so valuable and it has been something I have been thinking much about lately. Had the tribulation happened in 70AD all of history would reflect the event as such.

Of all the reasons that preterism falls totally bankrupt (and trust me there are MANY reasons ) the reason you have brought up is possibly one of the most damaging to preterism.

In no objective compelling way does history account for the tribulation as happening in 70AD.

Plain and simple! It didn't happen! Clearly had the tribulation happened as the way it was described by God Himself in the Bible history would have forever reflected it that way (or at least reflected in that way in a major way).

But then again there are actually people out there who deny the Holocaust actually happened and have wasted their entire life crafting reasons and explanations as to why we should all take them seriously. Likewise we have other people claiming the tribulation DID happen!Go figure!

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Knight:

I have a question, and it is a sincere and honest one, what event described in the Olivet Discourse (up to verse 34) do you believe did not happen prior to or including AD70?

Jerry I would also sincerely ask that you refrain from answering this question. I would really like to hear Knight's opinion on this.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Dear Knight:

I have a question, and it is a sincere and honest one, what event described in the Olivet Discourse (up to verse 34) do you believe did not happen prior to or including AD70?

Jerry I would also sincerely ask that you refrain from answering this question. I would really like to hear Knight's opinion on this.

I am not sure I understand your question, or maybe I just dont understand why you are asking what your asking.

By the way....

The tribulation didn't happen. It didn't!

Off to my weekend trip.... hope to be online as much as possible!

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Knight:

I am not sure I understand your question, or maybe I just dont understand why you are asking what your asking.

Sure that is fair, so I will clarify both. First my question is asking you to look at Matthew 24:1-34, the passage from which we get the phrase "Great Tribulation," and for you to give me a few specific examples of things you do not possibly believe came to pass. My reason for asking is simple... you have said that it did not happen, and I say that it did, and you have by kind of implicit comparision compared my belief with the beliefs of those who deny that the Holocaust happened. I am wondering if there are specific events described in that passage that you say could not possibly have occured, or if other factors outside of the passage have predetermined your belief without the need to get into this text. I believe that I can prove that the events did indeed happen but to narrow such an endeavor I was asking for specific verses from you to address. It is easy to say something that groups me in with a group of deluded people, but I would like to get specific, if you are willing. If not, alright, no offense taken, I know you too well to take it personally, I just would like to rap with you.

By the way....

The tribulation didn't happen. It didn't!

It did!! It did!!! Now we are even

Off to my weekend trip.... hope to be online as much as possible!

Have a great time and remember you are taking all of TOL with you....

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Someone conveniently forgot about Eusebius and the fact that nearly all of the early church fathers appropriated the promises to Israel to the Church. Ooops, sorry that this snake bites you too. Some people should know better than to wield two-headed vipers.

No one FORGOT about anything.There is an explanation as to why some of the early church fathers mistakenly appropriated the promises to Israel to the church.And if you will go to the thread "The MYTH that the Church is "Spiritual Israel" on the Eschathology Forum you will see exactly how that mistake came into being.

Now perhaps someone will explain why the early church fathers were in error when they taught that the prophecies concerning the "great tribulation" and the "antichrist" remained in the future and were not fulfilled in 70AD.

After all,they were living at a time not too long after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.Surely if that event represented the "great tribulation" and the coming of the antichrist,they would be aware of such a fact!

So perhaps someone could explain how they could have been in error when they taught that the "great tribulation" and the antichrist did NOT happen in 70AD and remained in the future.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry I saw your thread you referred to and it is a classic case of question begging. But if we say you are right for the sake of argument, you then have proven that close proximity to apostolic teachings does not insure against what you would believe is being gravely mistaken. I have no vested interest or great desire to convince you. It would take much more time than I have which I have to decide where to spend with multiple conversations. I await Knight's reply if he does want to rap about this, otherwise, that is cool with me too. I have a lot of other irons in the fire.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I see that Jerry has posted selected passages from selected Church fathers. The fact is that the early church had quite an ecclectic and at times highly confusing eschatolgy that was far from developed into any level that would allow such dogmatic statements from either of us. I have abundant testimony that the early church fathers in fact did view the Olivet Discourse (from which we get the phrase "Great Tribulation") as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem.

For example, and with more to follow.....

Chrysostrom - "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it." ( A.D. 347)

Origien - "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem." (3rd Century)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Dee Dee correct me if I am wrong... but don't you believe that the events foretold in the book on Revelation happened in 70AD? (or there abouts)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Dee Dee your not really going to try to make the case that just as many people or church leaders or historians OR ANYBODY for that matter believed the Great Tribulation already happened as those that believed it hadn't happened already... are you?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Knight:

No you are not wrong. I do believe that the majority of the events in Revelation were fulfilled by 70AD or thereabouts. I also believe (as do you I think) that the Olivet Discourse is a parallel account to Revelation. But since the title of this thread was the "Great Tribulation" and that phrase is commonly taken from Jesus' words in Matthew 24, I was focusing on there.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dee Dee your not really going to try to make the case that just as many people or church leaders or historians OR ANYBODY for that matter believed the Great Tribulation already happened as those that believed it hadn't happened already... are you?

Well as you should know, holding to a very minority position yourself, that head counts do not decide who's theology is right. So no, I would never try the vain exercise of trying to prove my point by a majority vote. But I can prove that there have been notable and significant adherants to the view that the Great Tribulation is past from the dawn of Christian history through the present. In fact, the commentaries of prominent scholars in the centuries preceeding the rise to popularity of dispensationalism held this view in the majority (by the way). This is not something that is generally disputed in the scholarly community.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

And another -

Eusebius – It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground." And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, "For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And again: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour's passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,--during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work. (A.D. 325)

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I could post tons of stuff that Eusebius wrote in his Ecclesiastical History but I think what I have posted suffices to prove my point with him. He had quite a well developd preterism for the time... considering the nascent state of eschatological formulations in general at that time.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Athanasius – "And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:231; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly.”

"He was like those sent by the householder to receive the fruits of the vineyard from the husbandmen; for he exhorted all men to render a return. But Israel despised and would not render, for their will was not right, nay moreover they killed those that were sent, and not even before the Lord of the vineyard were they ashamed, but even He was slain by them. Verily, when He came and found no fruit in them, He cursed them through the fig-tree, saying, "Let there be henceforth no fruit from thee" [Matt. 21:191; and the fig-tree was dead and fruitless, so that even the disciples wondered when it withered away.

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet: "I will take away from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the scent of myrrh, and the light of a lamp, and the whole land shall be destroyed" [Jer. 25:10]. For the whole service of the law has been abolished from them, and henceforth and forever they remain without a feast."

"So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His time, saying, "A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself." And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming "The law and the prophets prophesied until John." So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny Christ Who has brought it all about?.. What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ. (296-372)


I have more quotes to prove my point from Cyprian (250AD), Hyppolytus (2nd-3rd century AD), Justin Martyr (150AD), Lactantius (3rd century AD), Tertullian (200AD - which quote says that the 70 weeks are fulfilled) - Do I need to post them or has mine point been sufficiently proven - the point being that there is very early testimony to prophetic fulfillment significance of the destruction of Jerusalem as it relates to the Discourse, to Daniel, and secondarily to Revelation.

 

[OMEGA]

MATH 24: 1-34

MATH 24: 1-34

DDWARREN , You asked for a scripture on something that

did Not happen .

Here it is .

Does this not meet your parameters?

(Mat 24:30 KJV) "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

(Mat 24:31 KJV) "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

:thumb:

 

[OMEGA]

I cannot find the last part of your scripture of Jer 25:10 .

Where did you get that Verse from ??????

" For the Service of the Law has been abolished and henceforth

and Forever they remain without a Feast.

I cannot find it in any of my bibles .

----------------------------------------------

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by the prophet: "I
will take away from them the voice of joy and the voice of
gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the
bride, the scent of myrrh, and the light of a lamp, and the
whole land shall be destroyed" [Jer. 25:10]. For the whole
service of the law has been abolished from them, and

henceforth and forever they remain without a feast."


---------------------------------------

(Jer 25:9 KJV) "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations."

(Jer 25:10 KJV) "Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle."

(Jer 25:11 KJV) "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

:angel:

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Dear Omega:

Actually my question was directed specifically to Knight if he has the time or interest to rap. I know he is very busy and that eschatology is not his primary interest.