ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[sentientsynth]

The flesh wants to be justified by the Law, and the Spirit through the promise by faith.

How is the saint aware of the desire of the flesh to be justified by law if the saint is in no way attached to the flesh?

 

[Sozo]

How is the saint aware of the desire of the flesh to be justified by law if the saint is in no way attached to the flesh?

Paul was not aware until he was set free through faith in Jesus, but he clearly wanted to be justified through the law. (Romans 7). He is making the same point here.

The Law leads us to Christ, because we know that we cannot be justified through the Law. We cannot please God through the flesh. The desire is there, but the carrying it out is not. Therefore the spirit must be made alive to God through faith in Christ.

 

[logos_x]

Paul was not aware until he was set free through faith in Jesus, but he clearly wanted to be justified through the law. (Romans 7). He is making the same point here.

The Law leads us to Christ, because we know that we cannot be justified through the Law. We cannot please God through the flesh. The desire is there, but the carrying it out is not. Therefore the spirit must be made alive to God through faith in Christ.

And...once made alive, it is a qualitative and real resurrection...a fundemental change, not merely a mental assent.

the very idea that it would somehow be undone would entail the tranformation in reverse...the seperation because of sin being re-established as though no spiritual re-birth took place at all.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And...once made alive, it is a qualitative and real resurrection...a fundemental change, not merely a mental assent.

the very idea that it would somehow be undone would entail the tranformation in reverse...the seperation because of sin being re-established as though no spiritual re-birth took place at all.

Who is saying that the transformation can be undone?

 

[Philetus]

The smartest thing said in this thread:

Originally Posted by sentientsynth

Paul used the word "sin" to describe certain activities of the quickened saint. So will I.

The second smartest thing said in this thread:

Originally Posted by Knight
Which is all the more reason to simply stick with using the word "sin" the way God used it in the Bible and not create a theologically divisive, and confusing contention among believers and nonbelievers.

The smartest thing ever said:

Originally Posted by Knight

And frankly that should end the debate.

But some have a huge investment in the debate and their pride will not let them concede.

THE dumbest thing ever said:
I’ve been reading along. Sorry I haven’t had time to post. (Some are no doubt thankful.)
I’ve been to busy, out sinning with Fred. :bannana: :noway: :chuckle:

Honestly, it has been a very good and interesting thread.

 

[Lighthouse]

Of course! Is He blind?

So God looks upon sin? And He sees you in sin? He doesn't see you through the filter of Christ?

When a Christian steals an iPod from the store God can see that event if He so chooses.

But does He choose to?

Yet figuratively speaking He doesn't "see" our sin in the sense that we will not be punished for it. In Christ our sin is covered like a blanket and is not imputed to us.

That's what I'm saying.

Lighthouse there is an elephant in your living room and it looks like this....

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.​

You are doing a fine job of walking around the elephant but you haven't made any attempt at getting him to leave.

How many times have I said that we do sin? How many times do I have to explain this? And I honestly thought saying that Paul spoke in human terms [and therefore we should also, due to the lack of understanding in most, of what Christian means], once, was enough.

 

[elected4ever]

I have been thinking a good deal about this topic. As most of you know I believe that as a child of God i cannot sin. I don't think that any child of God sins. Yet Paul said that we do and would seem to indicate a conflict in Paul's own teaching but is it really?

Galatians 6:1 ¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

What is a fault if it is not a sin. A conflict with the will and purpose of God. Weather you or I like it there is sin in the person who is saved. As lone as we are on planet earth in our physical bodies then there is sin because our physical person was never saved. Our physical person was never born again of the Spirit of God. It is through our physical presence that we relate to one another. Paul gives a lot of instruction on how we relate to one another and our world around us.

There is risk in making ourselves vulnerable to one another. None of us like to be criticized of what we allow in our lives. I think we as Christians are for more critical of ourselves and each other than we are of the world around us. I think our biggest problem is being submissive to one another. I have a big problem with that. You and I wont to be right and we both may be right on an issue but our flesh gets into the act and wants to be right at the exclusion of the other. I have yet to see a christian live perfectly in the world around him. As lone as we are in these bodies of ours, that will never happen.

Our chief problem is to be balanced. We must understand our relationship with God and at the same time relate to the world around us. Our relationship with God is objective and settled and our relationship with each other is subjective and transient. Both are truths that are taught in scripture and we cannot transpose one relationship for the other. We cannot make our relationship with God a transient relationship and our human relationships an objective relationship. We cannot make our objective relationship to God subject to the transient nature of human relationships.

 

[Sozo]

While I do not have a sufficient response regarding two verses from Paul, where he indicates that someone who is in Christ "sins", I am maintaning my position until I've done further, more intensive study.

This is not, by any means, an issue of just accepting or rejecting someone's semantical perspective on a term. To claim that the Christian can sin, goes against everything that Paul affirms regarding Christ's propitiary sacrifice. I am bold enough to say, that the majority of you lack the understanding of the fulness of that message. It's not a criticism, but a simple fact. The gospel reveals the eradication of one system and the dispensation of another. The law of sin and death has been replaced by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. The believer has been transferred from that one dominion, into another. Law, wrath, sin, & death no longer have any authority in his life. He is free from that dominion.

 

[elected4ever]

While I do not have a sufficient response regarding two verses from Paul, where he indicates that someone who is in Christ "sins", I am maintaining my position until I've done further, more intensive study.

This is not, by any means, an issue of just accepting or rejecting some one's semantical perspective on a term. To claim that the Christian can sin, goes against everything that Paul affirms regarding Christ's propitiary sacrifice. I am bold enough to say, that the majority of you lack the understanding of the fullness of that message. It's not a criticism, but a simple fact. The gospel reveals the eradication of one system and the dispensation of another. The law of sin and death has been replaced by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. The believer has been transferred from that one dominion, into another. Law, wrath, sin, & death no longer have any authority in his life. He is free from that dominion.

All sin was paid for at Calvary. That is a fact. I do not believe that any person is guilty of sin because Christ paid the debt for sin with His own blood. That does not prevent the dead from acting dead. We were born dead to God by our patents. That is truth.

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin does not mean that we do not sin. When we are not saved it means that we do not have life. Our identity is in the dead flesh and the dead will stand before the Great White Throne of Judgement. Not the living. The living have the life of Christ and are born of the seed of God and cannot sin. There is no way possible for you and I to sin, our any one else that is born of God. We have a new identity and our identity is in God and we are the same as God is. However we have not received our glorified bodies yet. We still occupy this dead body of ours and it still seeks its own. We no longer identify with it. Where most Christians get it wrong is to identify with the body when it comes to who we are in Christ and focus on the sin that the body commits and not the life that the Spirit has brought. The battlefield is in the mind.

If we focus on the flesh then we will become the servant of the flesh but if we focus on the Spirit we will be the servant of the Spirit. I was a servant of sin now I am a servant of righteousness.

 

[Poly]

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin does not mean that we do not sin.

This sums up to a T all those you've been determined to disagree with no matter what.

 

[Philetus]

This sums up to a T all those you've been determined to disagree with no matter what.

BINGO!

Admitting that we still sin is neither focusing on nor capitulation to being dead in sin. It is rather the opposite. It is humbly acknowledging that we are not equal to Jesus in our behavior though we strive earnestly to emulate Him in every way. And yet by grace through faith we know that we are equal to Christ in standing before God; not because we do not sin, but rather because Jesus did not sin and died in our stead for our sins. Neither we nor God deny the ‘elephant is in the living room’ as Knight put it. God’s admission of the existence of sin and great desire to have fellowship with sinners cost Jesus his life. That is not an occasion for arrogant boasting of sinlessness on our part. It is all the more reason we need to humbly acknowledge that our sin and sinning(s) are covered and that the perpetual consequences of sin and sinning no longer determine who we are.

 

[Philetus]

So God looks upon sin? And He sees you in sin? He doesn't see you through the filter of Christ?

But does He choose to?

That's what I'm saying.

How many times have I said that we do sin? How many times do I have to explain this? And I honestly thought saying that Paul spoke in human terms [and therefore we should also, due to the lack of understanding in most, of what Christian means], once, was enough.

In Christ, God chooses to not count our sins against us nor any longer identify us by our sin.
Lighthouse, my friend, you are needlessly beating a dead elephant. :dead:

 

[elected4ever]

This sums up to a T all those you've been determined to disagree with no matter what.

I am still without sin and cannot be convicted of it. Your acceptance of sin of the flesh is a weakness and not a strength. That does not make us like the world. it is the worlds attempt to make us part of it so they will not see their deadness and there need of Christ. Does it make you feel better to be known as a sinner? Does it make you more accepted by the world at large? I don't know about you Poly, but i am not all that concerned about sin in the world. I am concerned about the dead in the world. People know that they do bad things. That is nothing knew to them. They need to know that there is a hope for them. That there is life from the dead. It is not sin that will send them to hell but the refusal of the life that Christ brings. The dead go to hell. The dead will be judged not the living. Do you see the difference?

 

[Poly]

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin does not mean that we do not sin.

(emphasis mine)

You just said in your post right before you said this that you are not without sin, it's just that you're not held accountable for it.

I am still without sin and cannot be accused of it.

Your acceptance of sin of the flesh is a weakness and not a strength.

I don't accept it in any other way than exactly the way you accept it. In fact, I'll repeat exactly what YOU SAID since it is exactly what I BELIEVE because I couldn't have said it any better than you did.

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin, it doesn't mean that we do not sin.

We sin in the flesh but we are not identified with it.

Your main concern seems to be making sure that you stay in disagreement with certain ones. While it is true that Christians will disagree over some issues, they should strive to "come and reason together". And in doing so, when they realize that they are actually in agreement, they shouldn't strive to then make it look as if they don't agree. They should rejoice that they have been able to discuss an issue and come to the conclusion that they actually concur when they had originally thought this wasn't the case.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin does not mean that we do not sin.

:freak:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How many times have I said that we do sin?

:freak:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin does not mean that we do not sin.

How many times have I said that we do sin?

Sozo... I guess you are the lone "hold-out".

 

[elected4ever]

(emphasis mine)

You just said in your post right before you said this that you are not without sin, it's just that you're not held accountable for it.





I don't accept it in any other way than exactly the way you accept it. In fact, I'll repeat exactly what YOU SAID since it is exactly what I BELIEVE because I couldn't have said it any better than you did.

Just because we are no longer held accountable for sin, it doesn't mean that we do not sin.

We sin in the flesh but we are not identified with it.

Your main concern seems to be making sure that you stay in disagreement with certain ones. While it is true that Christians will disagree over some issues, they should strive to "come and reason together". And in doing so, when they realize that they are actually in agreement, they shouldn't strive to then make it look as if they don't agree. They should rejoice that they have been able to discuss an issue and come to the conclusion that they actually concur when they had originally thought this wasn't the case.

Did you get the rest of the message, Poly. Jeffery Domer had no sin but Jeffery Domer was dead while he lived on earth. He lift this world without receiving life. In the flesh there is not one christian better than he but the difference is that we have received the life of Christ.

 

[Sozo]

In Christ, God chooses to not count our sins against us nor any longer identify us by our sin.
Lighthouse, my friend, you are needlessly beating a dead elephant. :dead:

Apparently there is more than one elephant in the room...

I think can mess up some of the glory and rewards waiting for us in heaven when we sin.

1Corinthians 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Poly]

Jeffery Domer had no sin but Jeffery Domer was dead while he lived on earth.

:shocked:

:squint:


:dizzy: