Responsible for evil, absolutely not. But He has allowed it for His purposes. And all of us born in Adam and not born again are doing our will, and not His.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Responsible for evil, absolutely not. But He has allowed it for His purposes. And all of us born in Adam and not born again are doing our will, and not His.
Heard of the eternal counsel of God?
Does not the scripture say, God knew us in eternity past. If that is preconceived eisegesis, then so be it. Which would be reading into the text.
Surely you do not impugn Him by saying He is surprised by what Adam and Eve did? Let's get serious.
The Scripture does NOT say 'God knew us in eternity past'. Hezekiah 3:16?
God is not surprised by the Fall, but it was not a planned necessity, but only a possibility. It was not intended nor desired nor caused. It grieved God and was not part of His eternal counsel. His response to the actualization of the Fall was part of His eternal plan (contingent vs decreed).
patman
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Do you know what an idiom is? Does the Bible use them?
patman
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If God planned it all why was he so sorry he created man?
Genesis 6
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Bad planning, perhaps?
So when did God know us? When we were born? What is Hezekiah 3:16
How do you reconcile this:
Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren.
When did God foreknow us? Yesterday, Today, or Tomorrow. I say in eternity past.
what i quoted was hardly an idiom, and if you feel so strongly that it was, what is the true meaning of the passage. Do you know what an idiom is?
Keep reading, please don't stop there. Try this: Genesis 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
If God is Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immutable, how could you say He did not know what was going to happen in the creation?
Chapter 6 of Genesis, as you so eloquently pointed out, is man at his very worst. There was only one man that was righteous when Noah (him) entered the ark. Remarkable thing is, the flood did not happen until Methuselah died. But that was probably just a coincidence too.
God knew everything that has happened and will happen. And He knew it from when He planned it.
God_Is_Truth
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He's NOT. That's the point. At least not as the attributes are classically understood.
Because that's the view of the Bible.
Not according to scripture.
patman
Active member
Scparmy, you are just repeating things you heard. You preacher told you that, but you don't know for yourself.
Would you produce a list of verses that say god is, "omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immutable," for me so we can examine them? Maybe you will be surprised?
And what does Gen 8:21 have to do with your beliefs? Once again it sounds like God regretted having done something.
Not sure where you are getting your theology from. Our bibles must read differently. A God that does not possess those attributes is clearly not the God of the bible. And what other understanding to you hold for: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and immutable?
Have to ask what bible you use and who your god is.. Obviously we are not worshiping the same one.
patman
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Scparmy, God does not hate innocent children in the womb. What it means is God wanted to call the nation of Israel through Jacob. It means he prefered Jacob to Esau.:thumb:
Why can't you tell that this was a figure of speech?
You have no idea what my preacher told me, so don't go there.
Is this supposed to be a trick question? Shall I post verses that say the word trinity as well. Does the bible support the trinity?
It has to do with what we were discussing in an earlier post. You said to me:
I was showing you that God also said that He would never smite earth again. The verse was Genesis 8:21. You were attempting to show me that God was taken by surprise by man's wickedness, and I was pointing out that He was not surprised at all. Regretting and knowing are two totally different things, aren't they?
Obviously, we disagree on God's eternal attributes. The bible teaches from Genesis to Revelation, that God is never surprised by what we do.
patman
Active member
You're easily offended. Besides, I already went there. I can't take it back. You should comment on it for that reason (instead of threatening me).
Please do. I want you to find them, at least try to, and post them. Then I want you to explain them. Take your time with it too. Study carefully.
You are absolutely correct in saying that God was going to and did build the Nation of Israel through Jacob. I have no issue with that. But saying that God, when He said 'hate' in reference to Esau, equates to 'preferring' is utterly wrong in this case.
Excerpt from Strong's concordance for the word hate used in Romans 9:13
3404 // misew // miseo // mis-eh'-o //
from a primary misos (hatred); TDNT - 4:683,597; v
AV - hate 41, hateful 1; 42
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested
Here is 'hate' as used in Gen. 26:27
08130 // ans // sane' // saw-nay' //
a primitive root; TWOT - 2272; v
AV - hate 136, enemies 3, enemy 2, foes 1, hateful 1, misc 3; 146
1) to hate, be hateful
1a) (Qal) to hate
1a1) of man
1a2) of God
1a3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
1b) (Niphal) to be hated
1c) (Piel) hater (participle)
1c1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom
Here is 'prefer':
05927 // hle // `alah // aw-law' //
a primitive root; TWOT - 1624; v
AV - (come, etc...) up 676, offer 67, come 22, bring 18, ascend 15,
go 12, chew 9, offering 8, light 6, increase 4, burn 3, depart 3,
put 3, spring 2, raised 2, arose 2, break 2, exalted 2, misc 33; 889
1) to go up, ascend, climb
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to go up, ascend
1a2) to meet, visit, follow, depart, withdraw, retreat
1a3) to go up, come up (of animals)
1a4) to spring up, grow, shoot forth (of vegetation)
1a5) to go up, go up over, rise (of natural phenomenon)
1a6) to come up (before God)
1a7) to go up, go up over, extend (of boundary)
1a8) to excel, be superior to
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be taken up, be brought up, be taken away
1b2) to take oneself away
1b3) to be exalted
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to bring up, cause to ascend or climb, cause to go up
1c2) to bring up, bring against, take away
1c3) to bring up, draw up, train
1c4) to cause to ascend
1c5) to rouse, stir up (mentally)
1c6) to offer, bring up (of gifts)
1c7) to exalt
1c8) to cause to ascend, offer
1d) (Hophal)
1d1) to be carried away, be led up
1d2) to be taken up into, be inserted in
1d3) to be offered
1e) (Hithpael) to lift oneself
Notice, they are not the same words used in Strong's concordance.
thoughts?
You think that was a threat?
As soon as I find the scriptures that say the word 'trinity' I will post the ones that say omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and immutable. My post was a concession that you will not find them in the bible. But the doctrine is clearly taught.
patman
Active member
Yes. NT and OT used two different languages. And you are focusing too much one one word. An idiom takes a words standard meaning and completely distorts it. I could give you a million examples of how we use hate in english and the context of every sentence will change which definition we rely on. But in an idiom we throw out conventional meaning all together.
If I say I am going to make up a test, do you really think I am using the word "make" in its standard forms? No.
Concordances are nice. But you must rely on context to understand individual words more than convention. There is a lot of use of the word "hate" and "love" in the entire Bible, enough to know that God doesn't hate children.
patman
Active member
That isn't good enough. We are not discussing the trinity. I took your "Trinity" plea as an excuse to go on whatever you want. If it was a concession, you should also concede that we are not in the wrong from our beliefs.
We are discussing God's future knowledge. You used these words more than once as proof. If you truly believe these words are taught in scripture (whether they are used directly or not) then please show us how.
What verse defines omnipotent? If not verse, what chapter?
What verse or chapter defines omniscient?
What verse or chapter defines omnipresent?
What verse or chapter defines immutable?
If God is truly immutable, how do you explain that he changed his mind about man from Gen 1 to Gen 6?
Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
How can God feel pain if he can't change? How can God say man is good, but he is evil if he never changes his mind (especially if he is outside of time)? These are contradictions.
God is not a contradiction... so how can he be immutable?
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