ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[jobeth]

Jedi:
I can see how some might consider it good for them if God does not insist on having His way with them. (Although, personally, I think it is always better for us to let God have His way, rather than insisting on having our way).
But how is the notion that God does not force people to bend to His will good for God?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I would agree that such is best for us in the long term. Some, however, would rather not follow God. These prefer the alternative of hell. However it is morally iniquitous of God to force people, either actively or passively, to love him. That’s sick. That’s a demented state of mind. A psychotic tries to force a woman to love him. (Now it is truly said that God’s ways are not our ways, but higher than our ways. However, as someone on here already said, “God’s ways are not ‘lower’ than our ways”. We have plenty of demented psychotics trying to coerce individuals to love them.)

How is it “good for God”?

From my study of the Bible, I view God as desiring love and relationships above all else. Love is a communal union. It cannot be forced. So if God truly desires love, then he must create being that can make autonomic choices. Ideally the options that can be chosen should be well defined and not hidden from any of the parties involved. This will guarantee that the relationship is consensual.

Of course, you would be right to point out that God doesn’t “owe” us any of this, but if God wishes to experience returned love, I would say that these requirements are necessitated.

 

[Yxboom]

Jobeth,

Jobeth,

Well, I am sorry for not getting back to you. I was on vacation and I didn't even realize you responded since the thread moved on in my absence. I do acknowledge that AJedi did a rather well job of refuting your argument however in case it is unsatisfactory and so you can't claim I hid behind Ajedi. I offer you this.

Is it good for God or evil for Him to have His will thwarted and His plans ruined?

Ok here is option 1.

If it is evil for God to have His will thwarted and His plans ruined (by those who will not repent and believe), then God is not more powerful than Evil. Rather, God would be weak indeed if God's will is forever overcome by (their) evil.

And here is option 2.
So your argument takes the full assumption that there is either the first or second option as well the results are as you have stated. So you have now given me a loaded question requiring a binary answer. I would tell you then that your premise is faulty and your conclusions are worse. Reasonable for your belief but faulty in logic.
You present 2 things...If God's will is thwarted and it pleases Him then God should reward them. Based on this option and it's conclusion than I will disagree. For God's will to be thwarted than men must sin and if men sin than God is not pleased. God abhors sin and seeing men constantly sin than God's will is in fact constantly thwarted. God's will is for men not to sin but they do. So let's consider the alternative that in no way is God's will thwarted. The fact that men sin would have to be in line with God's will hence God's will requires men to sin. For men do sin. Hmmm...seems you not I am now left with a dilemma. :doh: Either you have to say that God desires and condones sin since it was His will that men would sin (thereby His impassable, unthwartable will is intact) seeing that men have sinned. Or you are left to answer your own question, that if men sin and God hates sin then God's will is thwarted which you are trapped in an agreement with my view. So as it seems you are arguing contrary to Biblical evidence, arguing that God secretly desires for men to sin and does in fact reward some with Heaven for it in the end. So your argument stands as this since you disagree. God determined that Adam would sin (even though He hates sin) because it was His good pleasure that he would sin (even though sin is an abomination to Him) and yes He does reward men for sin because He made them sin yet still brings some to Heaven and arbitrarily condemns others to Hell. On what grounds, His good pleasure because it is not the sin that condemns men it is God's arbitrary will that condemns them.
For all have sinned, but God had determined that all would. So to elect some and reprobate the others is to nullify any bearing sin has on a person's salvation. It is rather a scapegoat for an unjust God to sheepskin His injustice with this fake notion of sin and rebellion against His holiness. Sin is no longer the deciding factor in a person's destiny it is God's unalterable, impassible, unthwartable will that determines it. For God to determine some to go to Heaven and others to Hell when God had also determined that all are created to sin would make the whole brunt of sin moot. Rather God will reward men for sin cause He wanted them to, so those being casted to Hell is an arbitrary desire of God's will and not a just act in response to a holy character. Again, another conclusion you made to attack my belief but swings back and puts you back in the hot seat. For it is your belief as well with the Calvy's and LDS church that God rewards men for sin and arbitrarily punish others because it was God who determined they would sin in the first place. :nono:
The second thing is if God abhors the fact that His will is thwarted than He is weaker than those who have sinned against Him. Now thats just sad. Let me respond by simply asking this in return. If God's will is impassible and unthwartable than is God no stronger than His will? Can God change His will? No way if His will is unthwartable and impassable. God's will would be the true God for it controls the very God we are discussing. If God's will is impassible than God Himself is a servant to it and is bound by the will that determines His own being. God no longer controls His will but His will controls Him. Based on that logic you are advocating than God is impotent for He can do nothing outside the control of His will. If God wanted men to fellowship and men sin, God can not dynamically work with man to bring about restitution because His will determined it all and God and man are left to the whims of His will. So, I could and will address this second option if you can find some way to crawl out of the first one. As it stands the burden of proof is on your shoulders to prove either God's will is thwarted because men sin and He abhors sin or God desires sin and rewards men for it and arbitrarily punishes the rest. To answer the second option would only give you an easy ride but you are faced with the dilemma of your own words so if you would address this I will more than gladly respond to the second option. Peace.

 

[Yxboom]

Jobeth,

Jobeth,

PS. Please no "Who are you to reply against God" lines because it would really kill any desire to keep this discussion. Peace

 

[geoff]

yxboom,

you forget, she is 'serious'

 

[Yxboom]

he he :crackup:

 

[jobeth]

Apolo:

However it is morally iniquitous of God to force people, either actively or passively, to love him. That’s sick. That’s a demented state of mind. A psychotic tries to force a woman to love him...We have plenty of demented psychotics trying to coerce individuals to love them.

I remember once, we were talking about how much my neices and nephews adore me, and my son told me "Mom, the only reason they like you so much, is because you buy them clothes and stuff and play with them and take them on outings." And I grinned and said "I know. I planned it that way."
I do all kinds of things to make my husband love me, and my family love me and my co-workers love me and my boss love me. And it works like magic.
Does that mean for you that I am "morally iniquitous?"
Or do you think I am one of those people you described as "demented psychotics trying to coerce individuals to love them."?

Of course I realize that all these people can love me or not if they want to. But I try to make it very difficult for them to justify not loving me. And I feel that God has used these same type of coercion tactics with me. God made me fall head-over-heals in love with HIM, and I've never gotten over it. Hasn't He done the same for everyone? Or am I just "special"?

 

[jobeth]

Xyboom:

On what grounds, His good pleasure because it is not the sin that condemns men it is God's arbitrary will that condemns them.

The Judgement is not arbitrary, but it is subjective. It is based on our own confession.
Matt 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Faith speaketh! The mouth speaks what is in the heart. (Matt 12:34)

If we confess that Jesus is LORD of ALL and believe we have no deeds of our own agency, then we shall be saved. Our Faith has saved us. (God won't condemn anyone for something they had no control over.)
If we deny that Jesus is LORD of ALL and confess our disobedience of our own will and agency to Him, then we receive the condemnation we deserve. (God has no choice but to condemn us for our sin and disobedience if we are guilty by our own admission.)

For God will by no means pardon the quilty. (Ex 34:7, Num 14:18)
1 John 2:17 but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If God's will is impassible and unthwartable than is God no stronger than His will?

Nothing is stronger than God's will. God and His will are ONE in perfect agreement. God never does nor allows anything apart from His will.
God cannot lie nor agree with a lie. He knows that His will is ALWAYS perfectly done. He planned it that way. And those who think they can thwart God's will are delusional. Because whatever they plan for evil, God planned for GOOD. We are all just instruments in God's hands to use in whatever way He wants. We are merely the clay, but He is the Potter, and He molds and shapes us exactly they way He wants us to be.

BTW, I said they are delusional, not because God has deceived them, but because Satan has deceived them. God has said very plainly "I am the LORD." But they will not believe HIM because their deeds are evil. At least in their mind, they are. I certainly don't think so. And neither does God. But who will listen to our message?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Jobeth said: I do all kinds of things to make my husband love me, and my family love me and my co-workers love me and my boss love me. And it works like magic.
Does that mean for you that I am "morally iniquitous?"
Or do you think I am one of those people you described as "demented psychotics trying to coerce individuals to love them."?

I would say that you don’t, nor can’t, make your husband love you. You are describing doing things to persuade someone to love you. That’s a little different than a God who, either by force or by design, leaves people without the option not to love him. There is nothing immoral with persuasion. However, there is immorality is attempting to force someone to love you. Not only is it wrong, but it shows an unstable mindset.

Jobeth said: Of course I realize that all these people can love me or not if they want to. But I try to make it very difficult for them to justify not loving me. And I feel that God has used these same type of coercion tactics with me. God made me fall head-over-heals in love with HIM, and I've never gotten over it. Hasn't He done the same for everyone? Or am I just "special"?

No, I feel the same way. Because ultimately the choice was mine to love him back or not, it is real love – not a puppet on a string.

And, yes, God has done the same for everyone. And God has made everyone with the capability to come to the Lord. And God hopes that they all will.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Jobeth And those who think they can thwart God's will are delusional. Because whatever they plan for evil, God planned for GOOD. We are all just instruments in God's hands to use in whatever way He wants.

If that is true, then God is a sicko. What sort of repugnant god would "plan" and "will" that a little girl in St. Louis was raped and murdered. I don't think God planned that at all. It was the rapist and murderer that planned it, not God. Christians are so stupid that they don't even place blame where it belongs. They insult the name of God, and then wonder why those around them are going to hell.

Did God give the rapist the idea? Did God put the impure thoughts in his head so that God could direct him towards his "plan"? How sick.

It is not the will of God that little girls are beaten, raped, and murdered. Only, that God is powerful enough to pick up the peices afterwards, if people will let Him help.

 

[jobeth]

I would say that you don’t, nor can’t, make your husband love you.

Humph. I think I can, and I did.
And I think God can make me love Him, and He did.

That’s a little different than a God who, either by force or by design, leaves people without the option not to love him.

What's the point of saying "I surrendered" or "I yeilded myself", if the truth is that you were first conquered?

Do we first surrender ourselves to God, and then He subsequently loves us? No.
He loved us first, and coerces us (with many favors and graces and mercies) to love Him back.

Having tasted the Goodness of the LORD, what choice do we have but to love Him?

Perhaps you can imagine a person having the will and determination to despise the LORD, in spite of His Goodness to them, but I sure can't.

Either the Lord is not good to everyone (which we both believe is not the case) or God did not create everyone with Faith (which I affirm and you deny).

Can a person recognize that God exists and that He is Good to them and not love Him? I don't think that's possible.

The only way they could despise God, is if they thought He didn't exist, or if they thought He wasn't Good. And the only way they could think God didn't exist or that He wasn't Good, is if they didn't have any Faith.

Now I don't know how a person who has no Faith can muster it up for themselves. Do you?

 

[jobeth]

If that is true, then God is a sicko. What sort of repugnant god would "plan" and "will" that a little girl in St. Louis was raped and murdered. I don't think God planned that at all.

Well, tell me this. Could God have prevented it had He so desired?

 

[Yxboom]

One post a Calvy next post an arminian.....as Geoff would put it....Ox....Gravy....Ox.....Gravy.....

 

[geoff]

yup.. thats right... or..

"wall - head; wall - head; wall - head...."

 

[Yxboom]

eh I get that one

 

[jobeth]

If that is true, then God is a sicko. What sort of repugnant god would "plan" and "will" that a little girl in St. Louis was raped and murdered. I don't think God planned that at all.

I don't like seeing children hurt any more than you do. But why is it more inconcievable that God might do something that grieves us, than that we could do something that grieves God?

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Do you believe it is true in all cases, that after the suffering and grief of God's chastening, that very thing that grieved us yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness even to those who are the recipients of that chastening? I do.

I know that I am often hurt, or sorrowful, or grieved, but even in the midst of those things which make me sad, I know that all things, even those things, work together for good, and that God is using them to facilitate His good purpose.

 

[geoff]

Jobeth, we cant do anything to grieve God according to you, because He has planned everything and there is no Sin...

yxboom..

Thought you might

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I said: That’s a little different than a God who, either by force or by design, leaves people without the option not to love him.

Jobeth said; What's the point of saying "I surrendered" or "I yeilded myself", if the truth is that you were first conquered?

Do we first surrender ourselves to God, and then He subsequently loves us? No.
He loved us first, and coerces us (with many favors and graces and mercies) to love Him back.

I agree. No one can “make’ anyone else love them. Love is a communal act. You can try to convince, even as God tries to convince, however the choice is still the other persons. Many times God’s desire for people to turn to him is thwarted in this regard.

And no, you didn’t make your husband love you. He had a choice (I hope), or else you are guilty of a crime.

Jobeth said: Having tasted the Goodness of the LORD, what choice do we have but to love Him?

The obvious answer is that we could reject that goodness. Everyone living at Jesus’ time tasted the goodness of the Lord. Most chose darkness rather than light.

Jobeth said: The only way they could despise God, is if they thought He didn't exist, or if they thought He wasn't Good. And the only way they could think God didn't exist or that He wasn't Good, is if they didn't have any Faith.

I believe that is a rather naïve statement. Many people experience good in their lives and still reject it. I have done it myself at times. People aren’t always overwhelmed by good. People generally can acknowledge good, and still reject it.

I said: If that is true, then God is a sicko. What sort of repugnant god would "plan" and "will" that a little girl in St. Louis was raped and murdered. I don't think God planned that at all.

jobeth responded Well, tell me this. Could God have prevented it had He so desired?

Power-wise? Of course! God could prevent all acts good or evil, but there would be consequences if He did. God desires love, which I said before is a communal act.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Yxboom said: One post a Calvy next post an arminian.....as Geoff would put it....Ox....Gravy....Ox.....Gravy.....

Jobeth’s viewpoint seems close to compatibilism.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Geof said: Jobeth, we cant do anything to grieve God according to you, because He has planned everything and there is no Sin...

[Ephesians 4:30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now why would the Holy spirit grieve if I was doing exactly as God planned? Does God grieve himself?

Or perhaps she thinks God has two different wills, that sometimes oppose one another? not only is that a sadly common belief, but we have mental wards full of such psychosis.