ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)
- Thread starter geoff
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Surly-DwarF
New member
Geoff,
"Hahaha", as in you agree or disagree that foreknowledge requires certainty? I'll assume you agree it does, as will I -- it's just the conclusions muzic makes from that premise I take issue with. To wit:
Good so far.
That's a bit obtuse. Correct me if I'm misreading you, but I interpret your sentence to mean something like, "If God has certain foreknowledge then anything His creatures do they couldn't have done otherwise, and therefore are not the cause of whatever they did."
Is that right? If so, it doesn't hold water. If you don't believe it, then perhaps you can explain just how God's foreknowledge of an event and the certainty of its occurrence prevents you from having a true choice or deciding on a course of action when you have several to choose from (albeit it is certain which one you will choose) IF you have the ability to choose what seems best to you AND you have no idea what God's certain foreknowledge of the outcome is.
Yes, God is the initial cause, but the rest unfortunately (or fortunately in my view) doesn't follow. If He hadn't brought the Universe into being then no subsequent events (foreknown or otherwise) could be caused by His creatures. And by creation and foreordination He set in motion a chain reaction that "caused" the rest of history to play out in an unalterable manner, that doesn't mean that His creatures have no freedom to choose as they will. And it doesn't mean that God must force them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do in order to guarantee His foreknowledge. There are many things that are certain to happen that God does not do or perform but which are done by His creatures, and they are the immediate cause of those things. It's already been established that foreknowledge is NOT causative.
No, quite the opposite. God tells us there is nothing He does not know.
Mike
"Hahaha", as in you agree or disagree that foreknowledge requires certainty? I'll assume you agree it does, as will I -- it's just the conclusions muzic makes from that premise I take issue with. To wit:
Good so far.
That's a bit obtuse. Correct me if I'm misreading you, but I interpret your sentence to mean something like, "If God has certain foreknowledge then anything His creatures do they couldn't have done otherwise, and therefore are not the cause of whatever they did."
Is that right? If so, it doesn't hold water. If you don't believe it, then perhaps you can explain just how God's foreknowledge of an event and the certainty of its occurrence prevents you from having a true choice or deciding on a course of action when you have several to choose from (albeit it is certain which one you will choose) IF you have the ability to choose what seems best to you AND you have no idea what God's certain foreknowledge of the outcome is.
Yes, God is the initial cause, but the rest unfortunately (or fortunately in my view) doesn't follow. If He hadn't brought the Universe into being then no subsequent events (foreknown or otherwise) could be caused by His creatures. And by creation and foreordination He set in motion a chain reaction that "caused" the rest of history to play out in an unalterable manner, that doesn't mean that His creatures have no freedom to choose as they will. And it doesn't mean that God must force them to do things they wouldn't otherwise do in order to guarantee His foreknowledge. There are many things that are certain to happen that God does not do or perform but which are done by His creatures, and they are the immediate cause of those things. It's already been established that foreknowledge is NOT causative.
No, quite the opposite. God tells us there is nothing He does not know.
Mike
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1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
uh... yeah?
from webster
indicate
1 a : to point out or point to b : to be a sign, symptom, or index of <the high fever indicates a serious condition> c : to demonstrate or suggest the necessity or advisability of
obviously I meant lfw and I definitely meant self determinism.
Surly-DwarF
New member
You know, you obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum, so why are you here? You're either by far the most dishonest person or the most confused person I've met here and I prefer to think it's confusion and/or some type of emotional dysfunction. I've tried to be patient, but you just don't have the ability to discuss these issues in a clear, productive manner.
Surly-DwarF
New member
Geoff,
Hmm, maybe I need to be more precise in the way I word things. One thing I meant to convey is that certainty is a result of foreknowledge, as you mentioned. You're right, it's not a prerequisite. But it is a necessary consequence of foreknowledge, wouldn't you say?
Hmm, maybe I need to be more precise in the way I word things. One thing I meant to convey is that certainty is a result of foreknowledge, as you mentioned. You're right, it's not a prerequisite. But it is a necessary consequence of foreknowledge, wouldn't you say?
Surly-DwarF
New member
Uh, yeah Geoff. That's basically what I meant Do you think that I came across clearly enough in my post to muzik?
Do you think that I came across clearly enough in my post to muzik?Surly-DwarF
New member
1013,
There are a lot of things I can't handle with the maturity of an adult But that's neither here nor there. Yeah, I guess I am a little frustrated, but not because of any inadequacy on my part, as you think. I really meant what I said, and it wasn't meant as an insult, though I can understand why your first reaction would be to take offense. I'm truly sorry if I hurt your feelings. I just...I don't know. I find it impossible to dialogue with you, so I guess I'll try not to comment any more on the things you say, unless absolutely necessary. I'm not putting you on ignore, and I didn't mean I wish you were gone for good. Not that I think you would leave just cuz I asked you to, but I don't even want you to. *Sigh*
Mike
There are a lot of things I can't handle with the maturity of an adult
But that's neither here nor there. Yeah, I guess I am a little frustrated, but not because of any inadequacy on my part, as you think. I really meant what I said, and it wasn't meant as an insult, though I can understand why your first reaction would be to take offense. I'm truly sorry if I hurt your feelings. I just...I don't know. I find it impossible to dialogue with you, so I guess I'll try not to comment any more on the things you say, unless absolutely necessary. I'm not putting you on ignore, and I didn't mean I wish you were gone for good. Not that I think you would leave just cuz I asked you to, but I don't even want you to. *Sigh* Mike
1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
as I said in the other thread, thanks for the apology.
as for this
It might help you to understand what I believe as I understand what I believe. Only a dialogue can hope to bring that about.
the last post of mine before you posted your frustration, I honestly don't see what was so hard about what I said.
I said indicate and you attacked that but the dictionary is on my side.
I mention freedom but I expect that when I make claims about it and foreknowledge being incompatible, one would should know from dialogueing with me that I implicitly mean freedom as defined by lfw.
but if perhaps by impossible to dialogue, you mean impossible to convince, that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. That's just not the way people work.
The fact is, any view is coherent provided certain prices are paid. but as my metaphysics prof has said, it all comes down to haggling over the price. (Albeit, I have said and maintain that calvinism is incoherent, because I don't think most calvinists pay the price on the tag)
as for this
It might help you to understand what I believe as I understand what I believe. Only a dialogue can hope to bring that about.
the last post of mine before you posted your frustration, I honestly don't see what was so hard about what I said.
I said indicate and you attacked that but the dictionary is on my side.
I mention freedom but I expect that when I make claims about it and foreknowledge being incompatible, one would should know from dialogueing with me that I implicitly mean freedom as defined by lfw.
but if perhaps by impossible to dialogue, you mean impossible to convince, that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. That's just not the way people work.
The fact is, any view is coherent provided certain prices are paid. but as my metaphysics prof has said, it all comes down to haggling over the price. (Albeit, I have said and maintain that calvinism is incoherent, because I don't think most calvinists pay the price on the tag)
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Every person born of ADAM is DOOMED and without hope in this world.
Its a good thing God is mercyfull!
In that while we were yet sinners (DOOMED TO BE DAMNED) Christ died for us.
Is there any who read these posts not worthy of death and eternal seperation from God?
NOPE!
Jesus said "sin must come but woe by whom it comes"
The generation who lived in Ninevah in Jonah's time were doomed and were PROPHECIED to as to thier destruction.
But they got WISE! and repented and THAT generation was saved,But was then the Word of God oof none effect?
NO.
For it shall NOT return unto Him void but WILL accomplish that wereunto He sent it.
For in the fullness of time the judgment that was so ordered came about.
If God was NOT mercyfull we would ALL be consumed!
and even those who know not yet God HE IS MERCYFULL TO.
For He sends the rain on the just and the unjust.
God is God!
and who can stay His hand?
Both in mercy or judgment.
"Therfore we should more earnestly give heed......."
Its a good thing God is mercyfull!
In that while we were yet sinners (DOOMED TO BE DAMNED) Christ died for us.
Is there any who read these posts not worthy of death and eternal seperation from God?
NOPE!
Jesus said "sin must come but woe by whom it comes"
The generation who lived in Ninevah in Jonah's time were doomed and were PROPHECIED to as to thier destruction.
But they got WISE! and repented and THAT generation was saved,But was then the Word of God oof none effect?
NO.
For it shall NOT return unto Him void but WILL accomplish that wereunto He sent it.
For in the fullness of time the judgment that was so ordered came about.
If God was NOT mercyfull we would ALL be consumed!
and even those who know not yet God HE IS MERCYFULL TO.
For He sends the rain on the just and the unjust.
God is God!
and who can stay His hand?
Both in mercy or judgment.
"Therfore we should more earnestly give heed......."
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Is this going the route of pro or anti-calvanism? Or is it still to OV or not to OV? Because I am having difficulties reconciling what the most recent posts are aiming towards. To think I was so enjoying the obviousness of the OV arguments and obliviousness of the counter. Dont mind me the innocent bystander.
Psalms 106:40-45 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
Dont mind me the innocent bystander.Psalms 106:40-45 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
geoff
New member
The thread is anti OV, because OV is incoherent, both logically, and with Scripture.
The verses this discussion begins with are proof of it, or at least, offered in evidence.
So far, no decent argument has been offered against it unless you count - "I reserve the right to discount your evidence because I dont think you know what you're talking about'
If you consider that an 'obvious' answer... you need some medical help
The verses this discussion begins with are proof of it, or at least, offered in evidence.
So far, no decent argument has been offered against it unless you count - "I reserve the right to discount your evidence because I dont think you know what you're talking about'
If you consider that an 'obvious' answer... you need some medical help
Y
Yxboom
Guest
Let me reiterate.
Psalms 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Psalms 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
geoff
New member
Yxboom,
Cool, you can quote a verse... however without knowing why you think this some how defeats the orthodox position, I am at a loss to know what you are on about. As far as I can see, this verse actually affirms the Non OV ie, traditional or orthodox view.
So, are u in need of a Physician?
Cool, you can quote a verse... however without knowing why you think this some how defeats the orthodox position, I am at a loss to know what you are on about. As far as I can see, this verse actually affirms the Non OV ie, traditional or orthodox view.
So, are u in need of a Physician?
Edgar Caiña
New member
There’s nothing in the verse that requires us to believe that God predestined everything and every person to a particular fate. The verse is saying that because these people rejected God, He will judge them and thus designating others to death, others to the sword, etc., which God has the right to do so. But to read this verse as saying that God predestined these people and everyone (even before they were born) in this world for that matter, to death, sword, etc. is unwarranted. Therefore, the OV still stands with this verse. In fact, down in verse 6 the LORD says that He's now weary of relenting :
You have rejected me, says the LORD,
You are going backward; so I have
stretched out my hand against you and
destroyed you - I am weary of relenting.
(Jeremiah 15:6, NRSV)
The LORD, in His disappointment with these people, designated them to judgment.
Blessings,
Edgar
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