ECT Another Look At the 144,000

northwye

New member
Another Look At the 144,000

Dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, Separation Theology or the Rapture Theory teaches, without explicit authority in scripture, that the Capital C Church, somehow different from the ekklesia, is removed from the Earth, and Old Covenant Israel is restored in a new dispensation of law. But - any theological system that confuses, obscures, or falsely addresses the issue of spiritual identity is spiritually dangerous and requires refutation.

Dispensationalism gets several prophecies wrong. For example, it teaches that a one man anti-Christ will appear near the end of the age, but I John 2: 18 says there are many anti-Christs and that there is a spirit of anti-Christ (I John 4: 3).

Likewise dispensationalism claims the 144,000 are all Jews.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

Apparently, in dispensationalism when God "raptures" the dispensationalism Capital C Church, and deals specifically again with Old Covenant Israel, the Church Age is over.

The 144,000 is however a remnant.

Since Revelation 7: 1-8 says the 144,000 are out of Israel, though the text lists the tribes of Old Covenant Israel,since the 144,000 appear during the New Covenant and before the return of Christ, we might want to figure out what that Israel is in the New Covenant.

The New Testament says there is more than one Israel – “they are not all Israel which are of Israel” Romans 9:6.

Paul tells us the definition of a Jew is no longer a flesh and blood person physically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but a man or a woman who has been Spiritually regenerated through the new birth in Christ.

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly…But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly…in the spirit, and not in the letter” (Romans 2:28, 29).

The New Covenant in Jesus Christ brings to light and makes outstanding in knowledge many things in the Spirit, which were prophetically anticipated in the Old Covenant by that which was physical or of the flesh.

So, although the 144,000 probably includes physical women, yet this Spiritual group is characterized metaphorically as male virgins in Revelation 14: 4

“And the Lord said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more” (Amos 7:8).

Although there certainly could be a few of the chosen people bloodline who are part of the 144,000, that group would not be made up entirely of the chosen bloodline people.

Is the 144,000 the same group as the remnant mentioned in Revelation 12: 17, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ? They could be the same. We are not told.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
Likewise dispensationalism claims the 144,000 are all Jews.
Likewise scripture claims they are of the tribes of ISRAEL.

Revelation 7:4 KJV
(4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Abrahams Physical descendants Israel according to the flesh are not the children of God Rom 9:8! That 144,000 are the children of God, go figure.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
Abrahams Physical descendants Israel according to the flesh are not the children of God Rom 9:8! That 144,000 are the children of God, go figure.
Abraham had other children besides Isaac, but only Isaac was his seed of promise.
Isaac was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

Isaac had two children, but only one was his seed of promise - Jacob/Israel.
Jacob was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

To say that being a flesh child of Abraham doesn't make any difference is going against the promises GOD made to those particular flesh children/descendants of Abraham.
 

northwye

New member
The dialectic is running around again and attacking scripture: "For they are not all Israelites which came of Israel:
7 nether are they all children straight way because they are the seed of Abraham. But in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
8 that is to say they which are the children of the flesh are not the children of God. But the children of promise are counted the seed." Romans 9: 6-8

Romans 11: 1-5 makes Romans 9: 8 clearer. "1 I say then: hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For even I verely am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham and of ye tribe of Beniamin
2 God hath not cast away his people which he knew before. Ether wot ye not what the scripture sayth by the mouth of Elijah how he maketh intercession to God agaynst Israel saying:
3 Lord they have killed thy prophets and digged down thine alters: and I am left only and they sake my lyfe.
4 But what sayth the answer of God to him again? I have reserved vnto me seven thousand men which have not bowed the knee to Baal.
5 Even so at this time there is a remnant left through the election of grace."

The Israelites of the flesh, that is, of the chosen bloodline, if they are not saved in Christ, are not the children of God. But those of the bloodline who are saved, are the children of God, as the remnant. New Covenant Israel started from a remnant of Old Covenant Israel, a truth that dispensatioinalism has difficulty with. Dispensationalists may disagree with the statement that New Covenant Israel began from a remnant of Old Covenant Israel. And again, they are confusing the spiritual identity of that remnant in Romans 11: 5.
 

Interplanner

New member
Abraham had other children besides Isaac, but only Isaac was his seed of promise.
Isaac was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

Isaac had two children, but only one was his seed of promise - Jacob/Israel.
Jacob was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

To say that being a flesh child of Abraham doesn't make any difference is going against the promises GOD made to those particular flesh children/descendants of Abraham.



You can't conclude with that without totally conflict with what Rom 4, 9 and Gal 3 say. Rom 9 give 4 OT proofs that the believers from among the nations are part of the Promise recipients.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Abraham had other children besides Isaac, but only Isaac was his seed of promise.
Isaac was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

Isaac had two children, but only one was his seed of promise - Jacob/Israel.
Jacob was definitely a flesh child of Abraham.

To say that being a flesh child of Abraham doesn't make any difference is going against the promises GOD made to those particular flesh children/descendants of Abraham.

Abrahams Physical descendants Israel according to the flesh are not the children of God Rom 9:8!
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
The BOC is not Israel.
Learn the difference and it will eliminate a lot of confusion.

Your BOC is imagined, and is not the Bride of Christ, the Mother of Israel the people of God.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2Co 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

LA
 
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