ECT Am I Calvinist or not?

andyc

New member
I have two friends. One calvinist and the other is not. They are both more knowledgeable than me, but I am learning.

Welcome to the theological freeway.
The first thing I would say, is to seek first the kingdom of God. Pursue faith, love, joy etc. Do not let theology become frustrating, and pray for wisdom and understanding.

They argue over whether or not I am a calvinist:

At this point you should dismiss being a subscriber to either theological system of thinking, as you are still seeking to uderstand the different views. Don't let differences of opinion regarding theology to exasperate you in your walk with the Spirit.

I believe that when God creates a person, he knows if He makes them with a certain personality and puts them in a certain circumstance (believing parents vs. non-believing/ America vs. Iran) that they will or will not believe. He could make them otherwise. I believe that man is incapable of obedience to God before regeneration in his natural state but able to believe in the Gospel and be saved.

Obedience to God for a Christian, is different to a non Christian.
A Christian has obeyed the gospel, and has the Spirit of God within, and so they are able to obey the voice of the Holy Spirit in their conscience, as they submit to the authority of God's word.
However, a non Christian may believe in God, and choose not to do evil because of the existence of God dwelling in their conscience.

What makes me uncertain is that there is election and it is predetermined, but a denial of total depravity, irresistible grace, and limited atonement. Thanks for any help in understanding this.

I believe that election is according to foreknowledge, and that the timing of a person's conversion is predetermined, not the person's decision to believe.

For example, the rich young ruler in the gospels met Jesus, and it was his time to believe. The bible states that Jesus loved him, and wanted him to be a follower. And so the timing was predetermined by God, the young man wanted to be perfect in God's sight, Jesus wanted him as a disciple, but the young man's negative decision prevailed.
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That's an unusually cheap shot coming from a guy who has engaged at length and repeatedly in numerous docrtinal debates here, including on the ones you just listed. Change of heart?

Perhaps you weren't listening to what I was actually saying during those debates? Thanks anyway for commenting.
 

jon machtemes

New member
The thing is, that believing in the doctrines of grace as communicated in the Bible can be difficult. They can be difficult to wrestle with. I have found myself in Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Exodus 4, and John 10:26, (well, actually the entire gospel of John), wondering if I am reading these things wrong. In John 10:26 Jesus says, "you don't believe because you are not of my sheep". The wording there is important. The fact that they aren't His sheep is why they don't believe, not that because they won't believe they are not His sheep. Once an Armeniast said to me, "Calvanism seems to work out great for the Calvanist". They were right. Who here wants to bear the weight of their salvation? Who wants to have to wonder if they have enough faith for it to be a saving faith? Who here wants to entrust salvation into their own hands and minds to properly respond to God? Many have a hard time accepting our total depravity: that we are entirely rebellious beings against God and that were He not to regenerate us, give us repentance, and give us the faith to believe in Christ we never would. It is a hard pill to swallow no doubt. I know these things from Scripture and experience. Augustine of Hippo understood this one thing clearly among other things he did not. He, Augustine, prayed, "Lord command my will" as he knew the will must obey God if He should command it. I would say if you don't believe the doctrines of God's grace and soveriegnty as outlined by Calvin don't pray anymore that God would save anyone, but pray He would orchestrate conditions in which they would believe. When you think this one out to its logical conclusions God either does all the work in saving and Calvin was correct about that or you are an open Theist and God does not fully declare the end fom the beginning as He says. You would also have to assert that Christ's atonement was and is based only upon whether or not you choose to believe. You have to say Christ's atonement was a hopeful one instead of an effective one. Admittedly, many like myself have to come to the understanding of election by way of long-lived experiences with God showing me Biblical truth, but my experience is not the rule of truth, it is in the Word. If we misunderstand our own depravity we will misunderstand God's amazing love and grace. To deny that election is entirely unconditional is to diminish God's glory. To assert that the atonement is not limited is to limit God's omniscience. To contend that irresitable grace is an offense to free will is to accuse one who erects a fence before a hidden cliff of being a robber. And to rely on your own perseverence is to say God starts the work, but you finish it. To accept the assertions of Calvanism without a hard, soulful struggle is to not understand it, but to deny its assertions requires that you ignore much of what Scripture plainly states. God is a person. Jesus is the fullness of God manifested in the flesh. All who fully understand all that Jesus taught concerning Himself, the Father, and the Spirit raise your hand. Yep...I didn't think so. It may be very difficult to understand THE person who is God, (this I know), but just because we can't sort out His ways doesn't make them any less a reality. I defer to Paul: Romans 11:33, " Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past tracing out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Or who has first given to him, and it will be repaid to him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen."
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
To deny that election is entirely unconditional is to diminish God's glory. To assert that the atonement is not limited is to limit God's omniscience. To contend that irresitable grace is an offense to free will is to accuse one who erects a fence before a hidden cliff of being a robber. And to rely on your own perseverence is to say God starts the work, but you finish it. To accept the assertions of Calvanism without a hard, soulful struggle is to not understand it, but to deny its assertions requires that you ignore much of what Scripture plainly states.

found this buried in his post

it is all you have to read
 

Cedarbay

New member
The thing is, that believing in the doctrines of grace as communicated in the Bible can be difficult. They can be difficult to wrestle with. I have found myself in Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Exodus 4, and John 10:26, (well, actually the entire gospel of John), wondering if I am reading these things wrong.

In John 10:26 Jesus says, "you don't believe because you are not of my sheep". The wording there is important. The fact that they aren't His sheep is why they don't believe, not that because they won't believe they are not His sheep.

Once an Armeniast said to me, "Calvanism seems to work out great for the Calvanist". They were right. Who here wants to bear the weight of their salvation? Who wants to have to wonder if they have enough faith for it to be a saving faith? Who here wants to entrust salvation into their own hands and minds to properly respond to God?

Many have a hard time accepting our total depravity: that we are entirely rebellious beings against God and that were He not to regenerate us, give us repentance, and give us the faith to believe in Christ we never would. It is a hard pill to swallow no doubt. I know these things from Scripture and experience. Augustine of Hippo understood this one thing clearly among other things he did not. He, Augustine, prayed, "Lord command my will" as he knew the will must obey God if He should command it.

I would say if you don't believe the doctrines of God's grace and soveriegnty as outlined by Calvin don't pray anymore that God would save anyone, but pray He would orchestrate conditions in which they would believe. When you think this one out to its logical conclusions God either does all the work in saving and Calvin was correct about that or you are an open Theist and God does not fully declare the end fom the beginning as He says.

You would also have to assert that Christ's atonement was and is based only upon whether or not you choose to believe. You have to say Christ's atonement was a hopeful one instead of an effective one. Admittedly, many like myself have to come to the understanding of election by way of long-lived experiences with God showing me Biblical truth, but my experience is not the rule of truth, it is in the Word.

If we misunderstand our own depravity we will misunderstand God's amazing love and grace. To deny that election is entirely unconditional is to diminish God's glory. To assert that the atonement is not limited is to limit God's omniscience. To contend that irresitable grace is an offense to free will is to accuse one who erects a fence before a hidden cliff of being a robber. And to rely on your own perseverence is to say God starts the work, but you finish it.

To accept the assertions of Calvanism without a hard, soulful struggle is to not understand it, but to deny its assertions requires that you ignore much of what Scripture plainly states. God is a person. Jesus is the fullness of God manifested in the flesh. All who fully understand all that Jesus taught concerning Himself, the Father, and the Spirit raise your hand. Yep...I didn't think so.

It may be very difficult to understand THE person who is God, (this I know), but just because we can't sort out His ways doesn't make them any less a reality. I defer to Paul: Romans 11:33, " Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements, and His ways past tracing out!

For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Or who has first given to him, and it will be repaid to him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen."
Excellent post. I broke it up a bit for easier reading.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
I have two friends. One calvinist and the other is not. They are both more knowledgeable than me, but I am learning. They argue over whether or not I am a calvinist: I believe that when God creates a person, he knows if He makes them with a certain personality and puts them in a certain circumstance (believing parents vs. non-believing/ America vs. Iran) that they will or will not believe. He could make them otherwise. I believe that man is incapable of obedience to God before regeneration in his natural state but able to believe in the Gospel and be saved.
What makes me uncertain is that there is election and it is predetermined, but a denial of total depravity, irresistible grace, and limited atonement. Thanks for any help in understanding this.

First of all, I would say that you should make certain your own calling and election and be grounded in the scriptures. Be a berean and test all things against what is found in the bible. If it is good and acceptable and lines up with scripture - accept it. If not, reject it. But be careful, because there are many subtle differences between different doctrines on specific issues (like predestination etc...). Spurgeon said that he believed that Calvinism was just a nickname for the gospel. John Newton said essentially the same thing (in a few more words). So don't get bogged down in trying to tell if you are a Calvinist or not - be more interested in determining what is true...AND WHY IT IS. And don't neglect the instruction of Godly men.

Second, I would say you are fairly clearly NOT a Calvinist. If I read your post correctly, you deny total depravity (which is the lynchpin of Calvinist theology), irresistible grace and limited atonement. Most Calvinists I know say that unless you fully believe all 5 points of the TULIP acronym, you are NOT Calvinist. Some will tolerate 4-pointers as "soft Calvinists" but most will say that most Arminians are 3 or 4 pointers anyway. So unless you are willing to reconsider your understanding of those points, you are clearly Arminian.

A point about environment. You say that God knows someone will be saved because of the environment He puts them in and He knows how they will react because He made them. The only way that holds true is if He knows all things - all factors affecting every single one of His Creation (external and internal). But it also means that He is reacting to something He created (because of conditions, I will create this person this way and put them in this situation). In other words, His Creation is not all determined at one point since the earlier Creation is determining how he creates someone later. But that denies God's residing in eternity. That is, it can't be that all His works are known to Him from the beginning of the world (Acts 15:18). Just like Daniel saw centuries of history in a momentary vision in the form of a statue, God has all His works determined from the beginning of the world - they are just revealed over time (a necessary restriction for us temporal creatures). But God clearly knows these things ahead of time - indeed, has accomplished them. So I would say that the idea that God reacts to what we see as pre-existing circumstances is limiting God to time and trying to understand eternity in terms of time - rather than as superceding and encompassing time.

Just something to think about...
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
people like moses, noah, constantine, etc were elected
and
the rest of you were not

trust me
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
At this point you should dismiss being a subscriber to either theological system of thinking, as you are still seeking to uderstand the different views. Don't let differences of opinion regarding theology to exasperate you in your walk with the Spirit.



Obedience to God for a Christian, is different to a non Christian.
A Christian has obeyed the gospel, and has the Spirit of God within, and so they are able to obey the voice of the Holy Spirit in their conscience, as they submit to the authority of God's word.
However, a non Christian may believe in God, and choose not to do evil because of the existence of God dwelling in their conscience.

This speaks volumes.
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
I have two friends. One calvinist and the other is not. They are both more knowledgeable than me, but I am learning. They argue over whether or not I am a calvinist: I believe that when God creates a person, he knows if He makes them with a certain personality and puts them in a certain circumstance (believing parents vs. non-believing/ America vs. Iran) that they will or will not believe. He could make them otherwise. I believe that man is incapable of obedience to God before regeneration in his natural state but able to believe in the Gospel and be saved.
What makes me uncertain is that there is election and it is predetermined, but a denial of total depravity, irresistible grace, and limited atonement. Thanks for any help in understanding this.
Well, let's see... you believe in...

Partial Depravity
Unlimited Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints
Election by Circumstance
Resistible Grace

Looks like you're a PUPER. Probably not the first.

Jarrod
 

Truster

New member
I have two friends. One calvinist and the other is not. They are both more knowledgeable than me, but I am learning. They argue over whether or not I am a calvinist: I believe that when God creates a person, he knows if He makes them with a certain personality and puts them in a certain circumstance (believing parents vs. non-believing/ America vs. Iran) that they will or will not believe. He could make them otherwise. I believe that man is incapable of obedience to God before regeneration in his natural state but able to believe in the Gospel and be saved.
What makes me uncertain is that there is election and it is predetermined, but a denial of total depravity, irresistible grace, and limited atonement. Thanks for any help in understanding this.


If you have been converted then you will receive confirmation of the truth. That truth will include the confirmation that you did nothing to seek or receive the gift of grace and trust.
 
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