Aimiel, can you elaborate on your title as "prophet"?

[Mustard Seed]

You don't get it?

I said will you stand by me, and I did not litterally/ physically mean for you to stand by me. But the saying stand by me is used as an expression.

Sooo? What are you getting at?

 

[Fensanity]

Thus you get this

As having a right hand, and having the Son on his right hand.

VS

The Father is not a man with body parts. He is the invisible God. "Right hand of God" is an expression referring to His power and authority.

I didn't mean to mislead you into concern with the question. But was trying to give you a more modern example of a phrase that is similar and not literal/ physical.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Now you must demonstrate the translation of that phrase as having it's allegorical essense in the context of that day by demonstrating several instances outside that one that are clearly allegorical. I rather tend to believe the entire reverence given the modern day term was derived from God's reference to those on his right hand. And if he was the source of the allegorical sense then there was no precedence for the phrase ever being clearly allegorical and explicitly void of any chance at literal interpretation.

In other words if God were really so concerned with us believing that he had not a body as ours then he's made some pretty foolish mistakes with the likes of Moses (face to face as a man speaketh with his friend) and Stephen and with the relation of the fourth figure of a man with body parts in the furnace. If God was aware of how these phrases would be taken why no disclaimer. And don't try to claim some implicit disclaimer hidden throughout the code of the Bible. Enoch "walked with God". All your defenses for a formless God are easily dealt with. Yet you cannot just wisk away all references to an God having a body. You try and allegorize all of it and you will find yourself essentialy with all those who allegorize away the creation and all seemingly supernatural instances in the Bible other than the ones convenient to their paradigm. And if all God says are things not meant to be taken litteraly then how can one be sure of anything in the Bible?

 

[Fensanity]

Are you saying someone has seen the form of God?

 

[godrulz]

Jn.1 teaches that no one has seen the invisible God's essential glory. Jesus made the invisible God visible. The Father could take on a form so the right hand of God could be more literal. The Mormon mistake is to take figurative language (God does not have wings either) and make it literal to conclude that God is a man of flesh and bones (Jn. 4:24 God is spirit, not flesh). A humanized God (except the Lord Jesus Christ) is not the awesome, infinite God of biblical Christianity.

 

[Mustard Seed]

Are you saying someone has seen the form of God?

Yes. The verses godrulz refererences concerning man's inability to see God are incomplete. No human has seen God in his natural eyes and lived. The Holy Spirit must come upon and actualy momentary change an individual that they may be able to be in the presence of God without it utterly destroying them as they presently exist, or existed, in mortal bodies. No human unaided by the Spirit has seen or could see God in his glory and live. Even then it's not the fullness of his glory they are exposed to, for it is infinite.

 

[godrulz]

One cannot see an infinite, invisible spirit. For us to see Him, He takes on a form that still veils His entire glory. A theophany should not be confused with the invisible, infinite spirit of God. The big issue is that the Word took on flesh, but the Father and Spirit did not incarnate. Mormons are wrong to think that the Father has flesh and bones. We should not humanize God, except in the incarnation of the Son.

 

[Mustard Seed]

One cannot see an infinite, invisible spirit. For us to see Him, He takes on a form that still veils His entire glory. A theophany should not be confused with the invisible, infinite spirit of God. The big issue is that the Word took on flesh, but the Father and Spirit did not incarnate. Mormons are wrong to think that the Father has flesh and bones. We should not humanize God, except in the incarnation of the Son.

Because rulz can't believe Christ when he says "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

[Fensanity]

Because rulz can't believe Christ when he says "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5, lets break it down:

John Chapter 5

The set up:
There was a sick man at the pool, He asked him if he really wanted to get well. The man said he tries to get in the pool but can't. Jesus healed him, told the man to pick up his bed and walk. It was the Sabbath.

The Jews saw this man and kept telling him, that is was not lawful to pick up his bed on the sabbath. He told them that the very man that had healed him told him to. They asked the man, who was it? and the man didn't know untill Jesus came up to him a little while later and said, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." So than the man went away and told the Jews that Jesus is the guy who healed him.

So than the Jews started to persecute Jesus, because he was doing those things on the sabbath. He tells them in verse 17, that His Father has never stopped working (He works on the sabbath) and that He like his father must be at devine work to.

Now this really pissed of the Jews, it made them want to kill Jesus even more. Not only did Jesus break the sabbath, he was putting Himself on a level with God.

Now to the meat and potatoes of the problem:

" 19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. "

And so does this mean that Jesus in perhapse the form of an intelligence saw His Father die and be raised from the dead by another God? absolutley not! Jesus does nothing apart from the will of The Father, thats all this mean. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus. Jesus gives an example if what he means is confusing in verse 21. Lets see what the rest of the chapter says about this.

22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So the Son Judges everyone. He isn't doing this on His own, after learning and watching the Father. He is doing this because He is one with the Father. Lets keep on reading...

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Remember Jesus is the High Priest, the intercesor and mediator. Why is this good news for us? Hebrews 4:15

"15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Why is this of so importance if God the Father had been a man Himself? Lets continue reading

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

How does Jesus judge? Because he has seen His Father do it and is imitating Him? No! But because he does nothing of His own self. The Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father.

31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Now I don't know what shape Jesus was refering to, but I think one can infer that it wasn't one of a man.

38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41I receive not honour from men.

42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The Conclusion:

How one gets out of John 5, that Jesus is going to die and be raised an exalted man (Godhood) just like His Father did before him, is beyond me. Jesus was and always has been God, He is the First and the Last! For a time Jesus was made lower than the angels, but he is not anymore. Jesus is who He is. The Jesus that it today is the same, he hasn't developed by watching and repeating what His Father did.

Also Joseph Smith has not seen the shape of God. If some one disagrees with this, I ask what is the "shape" of God?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Fensanity,

This is insanity. You are trying to portend knowledge on the subject you do not have. You are forcing it to fit your view and taking anything you can formulate in your own mind to make my faith appear as weird or screwy as you can. You do not care that they are based on your screwy assumptions on a subject you erroneously flatter yourself to think you understand in the foggiest. You cannot support your own theological bases and refuse (unless I 'start a thread' for the purpose of such) to attempt. It is beyond obvious that you are not here for discovering the truth. If you were you would take the council given in the last chapter of Moroni. Untill you can come to me and say that you've carefully read the Book of Mormon and honestly and truthfully taken the challenge offered at the end of that Book I have nothing of any import to tell you.

There is ONE God. All who have been and will be faithfull in the testimony of Christ receive the promises he made to them, in their fullness. Christ did only what he saw his Father do.

 

[godrulz]

Because rulz can't believe Christ when he says "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

I agree with this statement. It affirms that Jesus chose to depend on the Father as a man while on earth. It says nothing of His preexistence. Jesus can see the Father. He can also see what the Father is doing on earth through the Spirit. Jesus was in relationship and fellowship with the Father. He was not seeing the Father walk around in flesh on the earth and copying Him.

 

[godrulz]

Fensanity,

This is insanity. You are trying to portend knowledge on the subject you do not have. You are forcing it to fit your view and taking anything you can formulate in your own mind to make my faith appear as weird or screwy as you can. You do not care that they are based on your screwy assumptions on a subject you erroneously flatter yourself to think you understand in the foggiest. You cannot support your own theological bases and refuse (unless I 'start a thread' for the purpose of such) to attempt. It is beyond obvious that you are not here for discovering the truth. If you were you would take the council given in the last chapter of Moroni. Untill you can come to me and say that you've carefully read the Book of Mormon and honestly and truthfully taken the challenge offered at the end of that Book I have nothing of any import to tell you.

There is ONE God. All who have been and will be faithfull in the testimony of Christ receive the promises he made to them, in their fullness. Christ did only what he saw his Father do.

Mormons concept of 'one God' is not the Judeo-Christian concept. 'The New Mormon Challenge' deals with this. Read "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith'; D and C; and Bruce McKonkie's "Mormon Doctrine" to understand your true belief in 'the plurality of gods'. Ironically, The Book of Mormon does not explicitly teach this Mormon distinctive. Semantics has always been an issue in dealing with Mormons and similar groups (they redefine classic terms and twist Scripture to their own destruction).

 

[Mustard Seed]

I agree with this statement. It affirms that Jesus chose to depend on the Father as a man while on earth. It says nothing of His preexistence. Jesus can see the Father. He can also see what the Father is doing on earth through the Spirit. Jesus was in relationship and fellowship with the Father. He was not seeing the Father walk around in flesh on the earth and copying Him.

Interseting. So you believe through the spirit that the Father showed Jesus himself being killed and resurected DESPITE the fact that He never, in your view, had a body of flesh and bone?

 

[Mustard Seed]

Mormons concept of 'one God' is not the Judeo-Christian concept. 'The New Mormon Challenge' deals with this. Read "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith'; D and C; and Bruce McKonkie's "Mormon Doctrine" to understand your true belief in 'the plurality of gods'. Ironically, The Book of Mormon does not explicitly teach this Mormon distinctive. Semantics has always been an issue in dealing with Mormons and similar groups (they redefine classic terms and twist Scripture to their own destruction).

We, through revelation, receive the 'untwisted' views of the semantics as originaly given. Again as I mentioned in another recent posting. Many many orthodox Jews will deny your claim to true monotheism in the trinity. But, like you said, it all comes down, seemingly, to semantics.

 

[godrulz]

Interseting. So you believe through the spirit that the Father showed Jesus himself being killed and resurected DESPITE the fact that He never, in your view, had a body of flesh and bone?

Reword that? Jesus alone was crucified and resurrected. He experienced this, not 'saw it' before hand. The Father never had flesh and bones. Where did you get that idea (D and C?). The Word became flesh (Jn. 1:1, 14). The Father always was in heaven (God is spirit...Lk. 24 says that spirit does not have flesh and bones).

 

[godrulz]

We, through revelation, receive the 'untwisted' views of the semantics as originaly given. Again as I mentioned in another recent posting. Many many orthodox Jews will deny your claim to true monotheism in the trinity. But, like you said, it all comes down, seemingly, to semantics.

New so-called 'revelation' that contradicts the older revelation must be rejected. Christianity fulfills the OT, not contradicts it. Mormonism contradicts the Bible and depends on Mormon works for its definitive beliefs. A parallel comparison shows that Mormon doctrine is not Bible doctrine. It is another gospel (Gal. 1) and should be rejected. The New should not contradict the Old. The Bible clearly teaches one true God. Mormons teach a 'plurality of gods' and misuse verses like Jn. 10; Ps. 82 as proof texts.

 

[Fensanity]

MS, could you do me a favor.

Go through John 5 and break it down like I did. Tell me specifically where I am wrong and why.

Mr Smith in the King Follett dicourse said this concerning John 5:

"What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."

The Scriptures don't say it. The Word of God is clear on this.

 

[godrulz]

Smith was arrogant and ignorant. He boasted of his greatness, putting himself on the level of Christ as doing more than most any other man.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

What do you think I should do, deny the truth? I don't wear a badge, or indiscrimanetly tell people, "I am a Prophet!!!" If I were to deny it, I would be lying.

:rotfl: :loser:

 

[Aimiel]

:troll: