A Reply to Dave Miller

[Nineveh]

The didn't know they were crucifying God,

And that is what Christ asked His Father not to hold against them. Taking it out of context makes you feel you have the liberty to forgive all of anything, and that is not so.

I admit it, and I confess that for the most part, I'm wrong in doing so, because
I'm not doing these things in a loving manner. Even God's "hate" or rejection
is offered out of Divine Love.

Scripture tells me when and what and how. That which bears the fruits of
the Spirit are of the Spirit. That which does not, is not, it is of Satan. A good
tree cannot bear bad fruit.

Back to an earlier question then...

Does a homosexual commitment ceremony leave sodomites in their sin? That cerimony isn't Biblical, dave. Just as being unrepentant receiving forgiveness isn't Biblical. So while you say things like the above, you certainly don't express it through your personal beliefs.

We were discussing commandments, not what makes God smile.

Certainly your support of unrepentant sodomites doesn't.

I'll concede this point, I looked up the Greek, and it seems that the KJV
version which states "sins against you" is more accurate than NIV
"sins." This is a great surprize to me, however, I've always understood
the NIV to be the more accurate translation.

Rebuke/repentance/forgiveness is pretty much standard through the whole Bible.

I don't think you would intentionally, but if (and when) you do misinterpret what I
say, I have the grace to point out your misinterpretation without calling
you a false witness and liar.

Rather, if I misrepresent you, I would expect you to call me on it so it could be fixed. I don't need to lie about you dave, who would that help?

 

[Mateo]

I'll concede this point, I looked up the Greek, and it seems that the KJV
version which states "sins against you" is more accurate than NIV
"sins." This is a great surprize to me, however, I've always understood
the NIV to be the more accurate translation.

KAK!!!sputter, cough, cough, erk,...... wheeez

 

[Mateo]

well heck - where do I sign up ? :BRAVO:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/subscriptions.php

 

[The Edge]

Right. However, wouldn't you agree it's just as bad to go too far the other way and show loving kindness when you aren't supposed to?

No. We are to show kindness, and nowhere in the Scripture does it tell us to be intentinally mean or rude or harsh or insulting to anyone. If someone in the assembly practices habitual sin and rejects all attempts at church discipline, he is to be treated as a pagan. But nowhere does it tell us to be mean or harsh or rude to pagans just for the heck of it. And that is why I and most Christians (this board is not a proper sample) don't agree with Bob Enyart's "nicer than God" teaching.

Before I repented this wasn't the case, but not now. People who do silly things usually find their own punishments without my help.

Do you feel you are God's appointed punisher?
You know, if you really are truthful when you answered those questions, then you have more self control than anyone on this earth. Take a look at Paul, when he said he is the chief of all sinners, "what a wretched man I am!" I highly doubt you are better than Paul. You seem awfully boastful in your tone, and that alarms us.

Do you really believe Christ was telling everyone to never be angry? Even justly?

No I don't believe that at all. I'm referring to the passage where He talks about murder in your mind, or lustfullness. Those two are illustrations about all our thoughts, saying that thinking about hurting someone is just as bad as actually doing it. I've had fleeting thoughts about throwing Erin Marie and Dr. Brumley through windows, but thankfully I have self control to not do that, and I repented to God and we all do that sometimes. I don't believe there is a single person on this earth who can make it a single 24 hour day without having any sinful thoughts at all. You are not above all that, Nineveh. As the bumper sticker says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

No. This wasn't a sin I was in the habit of. Specifically, my sin was idolitry and being a slut.

Well I am certainly glad the Lord rescued you from that.

I can't say I agree with you here. Firstly, that I sin everyday. My heart wills to follow God, I am no longer in rebellion towards Him. Secondly, my conscience used to trouble me without ceasing, that is no longer the case.

My heart wills to follow God too, but the sinful nature is not purged from us at salvation. There's a struggle inside. Back to Paul. Study Paul's life and you'll see what we mean. Anyone else that is in agreement with me is free to back me up or put it more eloquantly. The Christian life is one of struggle with sin, with the goal of gradually removing sin. The difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is the Christian still sins but feels bad about it and make the effort to stop habitual, willfull, repeated sin. They still mess up. The unbeliever just lives a life characterized by sin, and does not care.

May I ask why you shorthand the Comforter? I've noticed beanieboy and dave do the same thing.

The answer was given to you but I'll say it again; it's just internet shorthand. No disrespect meant. If you are going to lump my spiritual state in with Beanie and Dave Miller based on my internet slang, then you need some help

: shakes head : Why on earth should I feel badly for things I am not doing?

Again, if you are 100% free of sin, then you are Christ.

Of course you will come back saying I think myself to be perfect, and that is not at all what I am trying to get across. Nor has it been from post one of this thread.

Your tone tries to convey that, but I don't think you really think of yourself as perfect. Yes, the blood of Christ covers your sin, but it's not a license to sin. God never said you'll stop sinning when you are saved. The difference is you'll strive to live a life not characterized by sin.

You may come back and say that I think it's ok to sin after salvation, but that is not what I'm saying. If we could do that, we'd not need a saviour.

That's because we are human. We stuggle with our unredeemed flesh but that doesn't automatically mean we lose every struggle. The more we walk by faith the stonger our faith becomes.

I didnt say we lose every struggle.

 

[Jujubee]

:yawn: I think we all need forgiveness once in awhile but dosen't mean we have to talk in haste to each other...

 

[Nineveh]

No. We are to show kindness, and nowhere in the Scripture does it tell us to be intentinally mean or rude or harsh or insulting to anyone. If someone in the assembly practices habitual sin and rejects all attempts at church discipline, he is to be treated as a pagan. But nowhere does it tell us to be mean or harsh or rude to pagans just for the heck of it. And that is why I and most Christians (this board is not a proper sample) don't agree with Bob Enyart's "nicer than God" teaching.

You truly believe there is never a need for harsh witnessing? What about when it produces the fruits of repentance?

For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Do you feel you are God's appointed punisher?

No, I am not invested with that authority.

You know, if you really are truthful when you answered those questions, then you have more self control than anyone on this earth.

I would say I am just more mature than some, but less that others. Surely you find no harm in self control.

Take a look at Paul, when he said he is the chief of all sinners, "what a wretched man I am!" I highly doubt you are better than Paul. You seem awfully boastful in your tone, and that alarms us.

Us?

Rather you want to focus on a certain point about me. So if it is your desire to find me a certain way your questions will be directed to that end. After I told you what God found me guilty of, doesn't that make me more boastful like Paul?

No I don't believe that at all. I'm referring to the passage where He talks about murder in your mind, or lustfullness. Those two are illustrations about all our thoughts, saying that thinking about hurting someone is just as bad as actually doing it. I've had fleeting thoughts about throwing Erin Marie and Dr. Brumley through windows, but thankfully I have self control to not do that, and I repented to God and we all do that sometimes. I don't believe there is a single person on this earth who can make it a single 24 hour day without having any sinful thoughts at all. You are not above all that, Nineveh. As the bumper sticker says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

Perhpas it's because my sin doesn't gather around doing harm to those who don't agree with me. I don't wish people ill will. This wasn't always the case, I can think of one time back in my pagan days I hated a person with a wordly hate. But I have learned quite a bit since that time.

If you have a problem with bringing your heart in line with God, that doesn't mean everyone does, and I think it's dishonest of you to accuse everyone of that in hope of making yourself feel better about your lack of self control.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Well I am certainly glad the Lord rescued you from that.

Me too.

My heart wills to follow God too, but the sinful nature is not purged from us at salvation. There's a struggle inside. Back to Paul. Study Paul's life and you'll see what we mean. Anyone else that is in agreement with me is free to back me up or put it more eloquantly. The Christian life is one of struggle with sin, with the goal of gradually removing sin. The difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is the Christian still sins but feels bad about it and make the effort to stop habitual, willfull, repeated sin. They still mess up. The unbeliever just lives a life characterized by sin, and does not care.

The more we trust in Christ, walk by the Spirit, and practice our faith the less our desire to give in to temptation.

Yes, let's look at Paul. Directly after Christ called him onto the carpet, did he hop up and want to continue in his former ways? No. The same holds true for me. It took about a week after my conversion to put one of my biggest temptations in the trash ( tarot cards ). My heart still wanted them but my mind knew I had recently traded up to a better Way.

The answer was given to you but I'll say it again; it's just internet shorthand. No disrespect meant. If you are going to lump my spiritual state in with Beanie and Dave Miller based on my internet slang, then you need some help

I woudn't lump you in just for "shorthanding" the Comforter. I would however by comparing beliefs.

Again, if you are 100% free of sin, then you are Christ.

When God looks at me He sees His Son's Righteousness. So when it comes to salvation, I am washed.

I still do not see where I should be repentant continually for things I am not doing however.

Your tone tries to convey that, but I don't think you really think of yourself as perfect. Yes, the blood of Christ covers your sin, but it's not a license to sin. God never said you'll stop sinning when you are saved. The difference is you'll strive to live a life not characterized by sin.

I never claimed I didn't stumble. I never claimed I was perfect, either. But I'm not going to accept responsability for things I am not guilty of.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

You may come back and say that I think it's ok to sin after salvation, but that is not what I'm saying. If we could do that, we'd not need a saviour.

No, actually I wasn't going to.

I didnt say we lose every struggle.

You seem to believe you lose at least one a day.

 

[Caille]

You seem to believe you lose at least one a day.

Do you think there are days when you have been perfect?

 

[Big Finn]

You truly believe there is never a need for harsh witnessing? What about when it produces the fruits of repentance?

For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Who says Paul's letter was harsh? That is a mighty big assumption being read into this by you. Truth can be said without being harsh. Besides it is never any human being who produces the fruit of repentance in any other human's life. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit only who knows the heart enough to bring about repentance in a person.

Ephesians 6:17 from the Amplified Bible says it well.

17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit [a]wields, which is the Word of God.

Take the word of God, but let the Spirit wield the sword and do the cutting. That's His job, not yours or mine. Jesus' parable of the vine says it well too. His Father is the Husbandman who does the pruning. No where does the Bible tell us that we are the ones who can tell what is in another human beings heart, and because we don't know what is in the heart we can't possibly know exactly how to reach someone. So, any tactic designed to shock, humiliate, drive people away, etc... is just flat out stupidity upon a Christians part because it is based upon the arrogant assumption that it is we humans who can change another human's heart. Jesus said we are to be "fishers of men". Tell me just how successful a fisherman can be when he drives fish away from him by being loud and noisy.


When human beings take upon themselves the job of God it only leads to failure. Oh, there may be an apparent success here or there sometimes but the vast majority of situations will be failures for we aren't letting God do His job and staying within the sphere where God placed us and can use us.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I'll ask the question again:

It would be easier for you to give us your "short" list of what sin entails. The
10 commandments are obvious, you think being gay is sin, what else? What
"grieves the Spirit" in your book?

 

[Nineveh]

Do you think there are days when you have been perfect?

I don't consider myself such.

 

[Nineveh]

Who says Paul's letter was harsh?

He obviously thought they took it that way. In my experience, I've noticed even the most kind and gentle witnessing can be called harsh or hateful.

That is a mighty big assumption being read into this by you.

Really?

"For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while."

Truth can be said without being harsh.

Sometimes, and sometimes not.

Besides it is never any human being who produces the fruit of repentance in any other human's life.

Who made that claim?

That is the job of the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit only who knows the heart enough to bring about repentance in a person.

I won't disagree, but will you go a step further and say no one is allowed to witness of Christ because it's the Holy Spirit that convicts?

Ephesians 6:17 from the Amplified Bible says it well.

Take the word of God, but let the Spirit wield the sword and do the cutting. That's His job, not yours or mine.

And Paul lists that same sword as part of our armor.

Jesus' parable of the vine says it well too. His Father is the Husbandman who does the pruning. No where does the Bible tell us that we are the ones who can tell what is in another human beings heart,

Who made that claim?

and because we don't know what is in the heart we can't possibly know exactly how to reach someone.

I can't agree. If we are lead to the Spirit and the Spirit wants us to speak to someone, He will tell us what to say.

So, any tactic designed to shock, humiliate, drive people away, etc... is just flat out stupidity upon a Christians part because it is based upon the arrogant assumption that it is we humans who can change another human's heart. Jesus said we are to be "fishers of men". Tell me just how successful a fisherman can be when he drives fish away from him by being loud and noisy.

Your above paragraph was "harsh". So let me ask you this: Why do you consider it ok to be harsh to someone not in danger of the fires of hell, but not for those who are?

When human beings take upon themselves the job of God it only leads to failure. Oh, there may be an apparent success here or there sometimes but the vast majority of situations will be failures for we aren't letting God do His job and staying within the sphere where God placed us and can use us.

Who witnesses if not us?

 

[Nineveh]

Dave,
When we live by the flesh.

Now that I have answered you will you answer me?

Does a sodomite's commitment cerimony leave a sodomite in their sin?

 

[Big Finn]

Who made that claim?

Do you claim to be able to read the motives of the human heart?

Joh 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

You will find no texts saying men can read the hearts of other men. Are you closer to God than Samuel a man who spent his entire life as a prophet of God? When he was a child God spoke to him. Can you claim any such thing? God told Samuel that he was no judge of the hearts of men because all he could see was the outside. And yet you claim to be just that?

Why did Paul say that we are to take the sword the Spirit wields?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What is it that reaches the heart? Men's words? Nope. The word of God. It is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Why? Because it is applied by the Holy Spirit and He does the cutting, the surgery, of removing the hardness of the heart.

Now, since you claim that you can read the hearts of men show me Bible verses that back up your claim. Show me where God has promised us that we will be able to read the hearts and thoughts of men.

The Bible plainly teaches the lesson that says, "not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord of Hosts".

As to me being harsh with you that was for a reason. If it turns you off, offends you, shuts down your ears from listening to me how effective a tool can it be when you use it with others? Do you claim to be different than everyone else? I haven't seen anyone from this site claim that rudeness is designed to do anything other than turn people off, offend them. Yet you guys all claim this is supposed to be a very effective witnessing tool. How can that be?

When you deal with a salesman of any type just how effective is he if he is rude, obnoxious, and crass? Will you buy from a rude person before you will buy from a considerate person? If so you're the first one person I've ever met who would do so, and I think anyone who actually claims to buy more from rude salespeople than courteous ones is being pretty disingenuous at best. Every one I know avoids stores with rude sales people.

Christians are sales people. We have a product that we want to present as attractively as possible before as many people as possible. Being rude and obnoxious is the worst possible way to market our product to those who need it the most.

What follows is the marketing approach to Christianity that I see Bob Enyart selling and many of you seem to be buying into:

I walk into a store and as soon as I enter the store the salesmen gather around me. They critically me you up one side and down the other. I start to look take a look at the the product they are selling and begin asking questions about its usefulness. I don't agree with some of the answers they provide as to why they product they have would work for me so they proceed to ridicule and mock me. They curse and swear at me all the while patting each other on the back and telling each other that this system will work for it will shock me into agreeing with them and buying from them.

Do you think I'm likely to purchase a product in that store? Do you know anyone who be likely to purchase anything from that store? Do you know anyone who would recommend that store to their friends?

What I might do is go back to that store just to tweak the salespeople. I'd go back with the idea to mess with their heads. But, I'd never go back to that store to buy what they are selling. And that's what I see happening at this site. There's a whole lot of you that buy into the twisted Enyart paradigm and a lot of people who reject Christianity, especially the version you guys are selling, who come here just argue with you and spite you.

If you can't sell earthly goods that way why do you think you can win friends and influence people for Christ that way?

 

[Mateo]

Golly,you took the words right out of my mouth... or fingers... as it were....


Admittedly, I've only been here on and off for two years now but I haven't seen anyone won over buy this approach and without any skins on the wall I'm a little confused how those that employ it continue to justify it...


... that is assumming those who do have any real interest in winning souls...


... which I highly doubt.

 

[Mateo]

While we're on the subject... didn't Granite say this website played a direct role in his rejection of Christianity?

 

[Nineveh]

Do you claim to be able to read the motives of the human heart?

No, I do not.

You will find no texts saying men can read the hearts of other men. Are you closer to God than Samuel a man who spent his entire life as a prophet of God? When he was a child God spoke to him. Can you claim any such thing? God told Samuel that he was no judge of the hearts of men because all he could see was the outside. And yet you claim to be just that?

I dunno where you are going with this, this is your claim not mine.

Why did Paul say that we are to take the sword the Spirit wields?

I'm not sure I follow that question. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word which we are to use.

What is it that reaches the heart? Men's words? Nope. The word of God. It is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Why? Because it is applied by the Holy Spirit and He does the cutting, the surgery, of removing the hardness of the heart.

While this is true, the Word is our tool in witnessing to people. And some of the Word just can not be made pleasant to people who love their sins.

Now, since you claim that you can read the hearts of men

After 3 times rejecting this, it's you making that claim, not me trying to do the impossible.

show me Bible verses that back up your claim. Show me where God has promised us that we will be able to read the hearts and thoughts of men.

Better yet, why not show me where I have judged someone's heart rather than their words here on TOL.

The Bible plainly teaches the lesson that says, "not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord of Hosts".

As to me being harsh with you that was for a reason.

You missed it didn't you? You say it's not right to be harsh to those in danger of hell, but feel free to be harsh with those who aren't in danger of being seperated from God. What does "preaching to the chior" acheive? Obviously you understand the concept that harshness is a tool.

If it turns you off, offends you, shuts down your ears from listening to me how effective a tool can it be when you use it with others? Do you claim to be different than everyone else? I haven't seen anyone from this site claim that rudeness is designed to do anything other than turn people off, offend them. Yet you guys all claim this is supposed to be a very effective witnessing tool. How can that be?

I've been listening to you. So far you have accused me of judging men's hearts which I don't. If anything turns my ears off to you, it would be your incorrect judgement, not how you say it.

When you deal with a salesman of any type just how effective is he if he is rude, obnoxious, and crass? Will you buy from a rude person before you will buy from a considerate person? If so you're the first one person I've ever met who would do so, and I think anyone who actually claims to buy more from rude salespeople than courteous ones is being pretty disingenuous at best. Every one I know avoids stores with rude sales people.

Who are you to judge how a brother witnesses?

That's sort of like walking by a personal convo between two people and butting in on one side or the other. Maybe you don't have the whole picture of what's been/being said. And who is to say the Spirit isn't using that very witness to reach the heart of an unsaved person?

Christians are sales people. We have a product that we want to present as attractively as possible before as many people as possible. Being rude and obnoxious is the worst possible way to market our product to those who need it the most.

What follows is the marketing approach to Christianity that I see Bob Enyart selling and many of you seem to be buying into:

I walk into a store and as soon as I enter the store the salesmen gather around me. They critically me you up one side and down the other. I start to look take a look at the the product they are selling and begin asking questions about its usefulness. I don't agree with some of the answers they provide as to why they product they have would work for me so they proceed to ridicule and mock me. They curse and swear at me all the while patting each other on the back and telling each other that this system will work for it will shock me into agreeing with them and buying from them.

Do you think I'm likely to purchase a product in that store? Do you know anyone who be likely to purchase anything from that store? Do you know anyone who would recommend that store to their friends?

What I might do is go back to that store just to tweak the salespeople. I'd go back with the idea to mess with their heads. But, I'd never go back to that store to buy what they are selling. And that's what I see happening at this site. There's a whole lot of you that buy into the twisted Enyart paradigm and a lot of people who reject Christianity, especially the version you guys are selling, who come here just argue with you and spite you.

If you can't sell earthly goods that way why do you think you can win friends and influence people for Christ that way?

And I think you have limited your witness to the "only nice all the time approach". But if that is how you are lead to call people to Christ, who am I to judge you for it? Far be it from me to stand in the way of the Spirit.

 

[Nineveh]

... that is assumming those who do have any real interest in winning souls...


... which I highly doubt.

Looks like you just judged a person's heart.

 

[Nineveh]

While we're on the subject... didn't Granite say this website played a direct role in his rejection of Christianity?

Not that I know of. His whole life was rather .... shifted... at one point. So I seriously doubt TOL was the reason he chose to become apostate.

Interesting concept though. How much do other people play a role in your relationship with Christ?

 

[Mateo]

Looks like you just judged a person's heart.

No dear, I'm judging the fruit and speculating as to the nature of the tree from whence it came...

 

[Nineveh]

No dear, I'm judging the fruit and speculating as to the nature of the tree from whence it came...

Not so:

"those who do have any real interest"

You made a judgment as to the intention, which is a heart issue.