A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Clete]

Nice job of taking the whole thing out of context to prove your point.....much like you do the Bible. Way to pick and choose...... :loser:

You are a liar Robin. I have take nothing out of context. Nothing. I quoted your own words as you wrote them and pointed out your own use of the very concept that I am arguing is present in the text! You made my argument for me!

 

[Clete]

Yeah, right back at ya, toots!

In what way? You prove me wrong and I will admit it. The problem is you haven't a leg to stand on Biblically, not one single leg to stand on.

Do you even understand why I called you a hypocrite?

 

[Agape4Robin]

You are a liar Robin. I have take nothing out of context. Nothing. I quoted your own words as you wrote them and pointed out your own use of the very concept that I am arguing is present in the text! You made my argument for me!

Liar! Anyone who reads post #293 can see what you have done....you took what I wrote out of context and you know it.

 

[Agape4Robin]

In what way? You prove me wrong and I will admit it. The problem is you haven't a leg to stand on Biblically, not one single leg to stand on.

Do you even understand why I called you a hypocrite?

:blabla: :yawn:

 

[Clete]

Context, Clete. Scripture proves scripture. But if you have preconcieved beliefs contrary to what is actually biblical, then I can't convince you of anything outside of the OTV.

Before I even read whatever inane response you'll give to my last post let me just explain it to you.
This accusation of yours is precisely what you are doing yourself. You are the one who is ignoring the plain and simple reading of the text. You are so blinded by your preconcieved ideas that you even make the argument for the Open View in your own post and don't even realize what you are saying.
All of us should endevour to take the Bible at its face value and not interpret it in the light of Plato or Luther or Calvin or Enyart or whoever. That point is not contested by anyone on this thread nor has it been demonstrated to be true of me or of anyone who holds to the Open View. You can make all the accustions you want but saying it doesn't make it so and if you are not willing or able to substanciate such claims then you are being a hypocrite and I don't mind letting you know it.
Now, if you would like to drop this childish nonsense and discuss this like an adult then we can continue. Otherwise, I have better things to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Agape4Robin]

Jeremiah 18:7-11
I will relent concerning the calamity
I planned to bring


"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds," (Jer. 18:7-11).
Interestingly enough, the open theists often refer to this section of scripture to prove that God changes His mind. But, if anything, these verses work against the open theist.
God works covenantally. In other words, He establishes covenants with people and ratifies them with signs. Covenants are packs and agreements between two or more parties. These covenants have stipulations and conditions with rewards for faithfulness and punishments for breaking the covenant. So, God relates to us in covenant terms.
God is telling us here in Jer. 18:7-11 that if a person repents from his sin and even though God was moving towards him in punishment, the Lord will stop and change His course of action should the person repent. God is being covenantally faithful to His people. He is stating how He works. He is saying that He will relent of the punishment He was going to bring upon a people if that people turns from its sin. In fact, God often tells them that He will punish them, which causes them to repent, whereby God then proclaims that He will not punish them. From all eternity God knew they would repent, but used His declarative threat to bring them to that place of repentance. If He did not tell them what would happen to them if they were to continue in sin, they wouldn't have repented.
Therefore, God is relating to people in their time frame, properly pronouncing judgment upon them for their sin, and then not carrying out that punishment if and when they repent. It is the means by which God knowingly brings them to repentance and is not a demonstration that God is "wishy washy."

All in bold is what you have pieced together and taken out of context......you are such a liar and a hypocrite!

 

[Agape4Robin]

Before I even read whatever inane response you'll give to my last post let me just explain it to you.
This accusation of yours is precisely what you are doing yourself. You are the one who is ignoring the plain and simple reading of the text. You are so blinded by your preconcieved ideas that you even make the argument for the Open View in your own post and don't even realize what you are saying.
All of us should endevour to take the Bible at its face value and not interpret it in the light of Plato or Luther or Calvin or Enyart or whoever. That point is not contested by anyone on this thread nor has it been demonstrated to be true of me or of anyone who holds to the Open View. You can make all the accustions you want but saying it doesn't make it so and if you are not willing or able to substanciate such claims then you are being a hypocrite and I don't mind letting you know it.
Now, if you would like to drop this childish nonsense and discuss this like an adult then we can continue. Otherwise, I have better things to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Giving up already?
How the mighty have fallen......

 

[Clete]

Liar! Anyone who reads post #293 can see what you have done....you took what I wrote out of context and you know it.

No I didn't Robin, it's right there for all of us to see. You said that, "God is telling us here in Jer. 18:7-11 that if a person repents from his sin and even though God was moving towards him in punishment, the Lord will stop and change His course of action should the person repent."

How is that out of context? That is the point of the whole first half of what you said! It is further the ENTIRE POINT of my having brought Jer. 18 up in the first place. The word in the King James is actually "repent" which you quoted as "relent" and it is in fact the same word that is translated "repent" over a hundred times throughout the Bible. This passage is, AS YOU SAID YOURSELF, saying that God will change His mind if the circumstances call for such a change. That's the whole point of the chapter!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jeremiah85]

drbrumley, would you say that anything that can do wrong is not perfect?

 

[Agape4Robin]

No I didn't Robin, it's right there for all of us to see. You said that, "God is telling us here in Jer. 18:7-11 that if a person repents from his sin and even though God was moving towards him in punishment, the Lord will stop and change His course of action should the person repent."

How is that out of context? That is the point of the whole first half of what you said! It is further the ENTIRE POINT of my having brought Jer. 18 up in the first place. The word in the King James is actually "repent" which you quoted as "relent" and it is in fact the same word that is translated "repent" over a hundred times throughout the Bible. This passage is, AS YOU SAID YOURSELF, saying that God will change His mind if the circumstances call for such a change. That's the whole point of the chapter!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Post #306 shows exactly what you have done and how out of context your lame arguement is.
Is this all you have?

 

[Clete]

Giving up already?
How the mighty have fallen......

Who's giving up? I will not tolerate much more of the childishness that you've sucked me into over the last half dozen posts but as I said, IF you will drop it and continue like a civilized adult then we can continue, OTHERWISE I have other things to be doing.

I wonder really if you are even trying to understand what I am saying. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Post #306 shows exactly what you have done and how out of context your lame arguement is.
Is this all you have?

Yeah Robin that's it, okay. You win. Go believe what you want. I'm through talking with you about it.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Who's giving up? I will not tolerate much more of the childishness that you've sucked me into over the last half dozen posts but as I said, IF you will drop it and continue like a civilized adult then we can continue, OTHERWISE I have other things to be doing.

I wonder really if you are even trying to understand what I am saying. :nono:

Resting in Him,
Clete

As much as you are, babe.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Yeah Robin that's it, okay. You win. Go believe what you want. I'm through talking with you about it.

Caught in your lie, you turn tail and run......I actually expected more.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Clete, you're welcome to answer post 309 also.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Clete, you're welcome to answer post 309 also.

I think he's taken his ball and gone home.....

 

[Clete]

You know what? It's getting to the point that it is no longer possible to have a genuine conversation around here. This thread started out so wonderfully and so intellectually stimulating and it was just too good to be true. But never fear! There's always the trusty Calvinist troll waiting in the wings ready to pounce on any descent conversation that has an ounce of intellectual integrity in it. And once they pounce, the conversation may as well end right then and there because all possibility of any progress at all just went right out the window.
I'm not speaking of Freak, he seems at least to be giving it an effort and docrob57 should be commended for having started such a terrific thread on such an important issue with such an interesting and compelling question. Even though he remains unconvinced, I admire his ability to think clearly, to formulate cogent arguments and articulate his ideas clearly and with intellectual integrity. If more like him do not show up soon, it is perhaps nearing time for me to find a new hobby. The frustration just isn't worth it any more.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Agape4Robin]

You know what? It's getting to the point that it is no longer possible to have a genuine conversation around here. This thread started out so wonderfully and so intellectually stimulating and it was just too good to be true. But never fear! There's always the trusty Calvinist troll waiting in the wings ready to pounce on any descent conversation that has an ounce of intellectual integrity in it. And once they pounce, the conversation may as well end right then and there because all possibility of any progress at all just went right out the window.
I'm not speaking of Freak, he seems at least to be giving it an effort and docrob57 should be commended for having started such a terrific thread on such an important issue with such an interesting and compelling question. Even though he remains unconvinced, I admire his ability to think clearly, to formulate cogent arguments and articulate his ideas clearly and with intellectual integrity. If more like him do not show up soon, it is perhaps nearing time for me to find a new hobby. The frustration just isn't worth it any more.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Oh, boo hoo...........I tried to point out what was wrong with your Jeremiah 18 premise using biblical principles and you turned it into a childish game by taking what I said totally out of context and then when you got caught, lied and whined...."you said so yourself..." You have deteriorated this thread by your foolish games. Face it....you are the one with no leg to stand on!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

John Calvin circa 1618

Greg Boyd circa 1994

Gee.....which theology has stood the test of time?

And then Freak responds....

Easy.
Boydism

Whoa..... whoa... whoa....

Freak you reject Calvinism don't you???

At least you have made that claim in the past.

To my knowledge none of you have been arguing Calvinistic theology have you?

Robin? Jeremiah? Freak?

None of you are Calvinists are you? If you are... you don't know your own theology very well.

 

[Jeremiah85]

None of you are Calvinists are you?

Not if I understand the term correctly.