A Peculiar Kind of Gospel
- Thread starter Philip
- Start date
- Status
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Funny ideas from someone who claims to identify with Paul as a "dead person"...
"...with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me..."
- Gal. 2:20 from one of lighthouse's favorite NT translation
Lawless
New member
Quote: godrulz
So your interpretation of Scripture is correct and Biblical, and mine is unbiblical?
So in your biblical interpretation of the gift ,and sacrifice of Jesus ... you believe this precious gift is conditional to those who believe?
Interesting.........How do you define legalist?
So your interpretation of Scripture is correct and Biblical, and mine is unbiblical?
So in your biblical interpretation of the gift ,and sacrifice of Jesus ... you believe this precious gift is conditional to those who believe?
Interesting.........How do you define legalist?
Young's Literal Translation is translated directly from the Greek.
My flesh is dead. My spirit is very much alive! For you, it's the other way around.
godrulz-
You are the one who teaches works-salvation. You teach that we must work to maintain our salvation. And you beleive that someone can be in Christ at one point, and out at another. Yet, you can't pinpoint the moment that they are no longer in Christ. The saved repent, godrulz. The unsaved don't.
You are the one who teaches works-salvation. You teach that we must work to maintain our salvation. And you beleive that someone can be in Christ at one point, and out at another. Yet, you can't pinpoint the moment that they are no longer in Christ. The saved repent, godrulz. The unsaved don't.
I contend that we agree on justification by grace/faith alone(Protestant; Reformed; evangelical). You seem to not distinguish my views on justification vs sanctification. We also disagree with the topic of the perseverance of the saints (OSAS). This is usally a Calvinistic vs Arminian debate. I think you are more in the Open Theism/Arminian camp, so I find it odd that you believe the P of TULIP.
I regret that you feel highly debatable aspects of growth subsequent to salvation are heaven-hell issues.
I trust we can have some dialogue, but it is difficult for me to warm up to your personality and misguided personal accusations.
God's Word and voice is authoritative and the final rule of faith and doctrine. He has given teachers to the Body (Eph. 4) and warns about their responsibility to teach sound doctrine (defend and proclaim the faith once for all entrusted to the saints- Jude 4).
The problem is that we are fallible and subjective (unlike the objective Word). We tend to bring our preconceived theologies and influences of man into our Bible interpretation at times (hence all the denominations that share the essentials of the faith but differ on styles of worship, church government, modes of baptism, predestination, eschatology, etc.).
We do not have the original autographs.
Therefore, there is a problem sometimes with translation (textual criticism) and interpretation. We need the illumination of the Spirit to understand the revelation of God. The NT leaders did not always agree on doctrine or practice. This is true throughout church history. This does not mean that only Paul, John, and Peter were saved.
Your fundamental error is that you think faith and obedience are works. Conditions are not works. Love for God and man is not a work. Faith is not a one time act (aorist tense), but an ongoing belief (Gk. present, continuous tense). If you cease to believe (possible), then the condition is violated.
I do not teach works-salvation, unless you consider ongoing faith a work (cf. Romans vs James on relationship between faith and works; Eph. 2:8-10 also).
I will forgive you for erecting a caricature, straw-man view of my beliefs and confusing them with legalism (cf. Finney is often misunderstood in this area....he does teach justification by faith alone, but it is not a mere intellectual belief in the distant past).
Last edited:
Here's the issue. You preach that someone must volitionally obey. However, when one is in Christ, He keeps their faith alive. He keeps them in righteousness. Their desires are changed. You also preach that someone can leave God, which shows you do not understand the nature of slavation. Yes, faith is on-going. But it is not we who keep our faith alive. It is Christ. He lives in us. The biggest problem is that you believe that someone can be in God at one time, and out of God at a later time. Would someone who knows Christ cease to believe? Do you really beleive that someone who ceases to believe ever truly knew Christ? I can not cease to believe in Christ, because I know Him. It is impossible for me to cease to believe in Him. It is impossible for me to cease to trust in Him. My faith in Him will never die. And you don't seem to understand that.
Lawless
New member
Quote: godrulz
Hummmmm...The "Law" of love and grace? Where does this come from?
You speak of not putting ones own messages/meanings back into scricpture, Yet you misrepresent what I said in a previous post. I did not speak of unconditional eternal security, I spoke of unconditional " Love " The condition of eternal salvation has the condition of repentance, and turning ones life over to the Lord Jesus. You kind of avoided much of my questions and satements in the past few post.
At what point does a true believer, if he should stumble and sin, become apostate, and become back under the law? Is the Sacrifice of Christ conditional to the true believer?
Hummmmm...The "Law" of love and grace? Where does this come from?
You speak of not putting ones own messages/meanings back into scricpture, Yet you misrepresent what I said in a previous post. I did not speak of unconditional eternal security, I spoke of unconditional " Love " The condition of eternal salvation has the condition of repentance, and turning ones life over to the Lord Jesus. You kind of avoided much of my questions and satements in the past few post.
At what point does a true believer, if he should stumble and sin, become apostate, and become back under the law? Is the Sacrifice of Christ conditional to the true believer?
Well, I finally got him to admit that there is no need for confession over every "sin." But that was months ago. Here's to hoping.:e4e:
Love, faith, knowledge, obedience, trust, etc. are not diametrically opposed concepts. If you love me, you will obey me. If you know me, you will trust me. If you love me, you will trust me, etc.
The NT does not make love, faith, obedience, trust, etc. passive concepts done to us by God apart from being in personal relationship (will, intellect, emotions). We are not robots, dude. It is simplistic to say that all is of God and we are not involved. God wants heart worship, not Calvinistic coercion.
Yes, God keeps our faith alive. We need Him for salvation, sanctification, glorification, etc. Yet, prayer shows that He has chosen to work in and through us cooperatively.
I am on the same page as you. I know Christ and I will not cease to believe (if I do in the future, that does not mean that I did not believe in the past). Just because I know and love my wife, does not mean I did not know and love her if we divorce. Salvation is a love relationship, not a unilateral physical change in our nature that cannot be reversed (who misunderstands salvation? My understanding is in the realm of morals/love/relationship while yours is wrongly in the realm of metaphysics). Peter ceased to trust Christ for a time. This did not mean that he did not love or know Him previously. If he would have persisted in unbelief, he could have went the path of Judas.
My faith in Christ also will never die. Jude 24,25 shows the promise and power of God to keep those who abide in Him.
I have no doubt about my salvation and God's keeping power. However, on an academic, theoretical, exegetical level, I would not use the word 'impossible' when dealing with relationships that must be freely entered into and maintained (God initiates, draws, transforms, keeps, but this does not preclude free moral agents from falling away. This is evidenced in the warnings of apostasy where Jewish Christians were reverting back to Judaism cf. Heb. 6. The ultimate examples are Lucifer and Adam/Eve who knew and loved God and then fell far. Adam/Eve returned to God and accepted His provision, but they could have gone the way of the wicked masses, contrary to God's will and desires for them. This does not make them more powerful than God, but recognizes the double-edged sword of free moral agency).
Either way, don't get your shirt in a knot. We love Jesus passionately with our whole hearts. He is Lord, Boss, #1. We are His servants, saved by grace through faith alone. He transforms us from glory to glory forming us into the image of Christ (character). The exact nature of sinful man's interaction with a holy God before and after conversion is a non-salvific nuance (i.e. we have to reconcile the verses that talk about our responsibility to work out our salvation, live a holy life, do good works, submit to God vs flesh, etc. with the verses that affirm the person and work of the Son and Spirit in our lives).
- Status