-74 to -111 in one hour

[cattyfan]

cattyfan just so you know - in real life between 2015 and 2025 health care costs are going to go through the roof - as half of North Americans will die from old age... and during the same period, half of North Americans will quit work and will try to go on a government pension that is taken out of general revenues. What you call real life is rather pale in comparison to what real life is going to be like in a few short years... I suggest Argentina.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

which of your personalities is clairvoyant?

 

[servent101]

cattyfan

which of your personalities is clairvoyant?

One does not need to be clairvoinet to predict this - simple statistics... as people get older they need more medical care, and as people get older they retire, when people retire they seem to think there going to go on government pension - possibly,,, but when half the people in America are not working, and 25% of the population is looking after them and 17% of the population is too young to work...lets see that leaves 8% of the population to carry out all the other things that the country now does with 54% of the population.


So anyways - you will find Knight in Argentina looking for me - apparently they in the last few years had a major major death toll due to poverty related issues - land values fell by 60%, people starving, maham etc. but nothing reported on the news... just like no poverty related deaths in the U.S. are reported on the News... and as well the same department of Heath which is responsible for the wellness of everyone - including the poor - well they will be looking after you when you get old too, and if I were you - well I would be a little worried.

Possibly if you consider anyone who is not blind, clairvoient, well that would be me then I must be clarivoient - I can see the writing on the wall - as for you if your not aware of the poverty related deaths in the U.S. and Canada - you are just blind, and the same government department of health responsible for not doing anything about poverty related deaths - well there waiting for you when you get old and find yourself facing poverty.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Lovejoy]

Would you care to cite your statistics? Currently, in a skilled nursing facility, you will see something like one nurse to every 30 residents. Assuming that only a small percentage of the elderly actually end up in such a facility, I find your 25% of the population looking after the retired 50% very unlikely. When you take into consideration how many grandparents are looking after their grandchildren these days, we even see a partial answer to your posed problems. You assume that the retiree's will be completely non-contributory, neither to the economy nor even to their own care, which is ageist in the extreme. People are working to later and later ages every decade, another thing that does not seem to appear in your stats.

 

[Zimfan]

servent101,

America in 2030
0-19: 26.16%
29-64: 54.19%
65+: 19.65%
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab02a.xls

Now given that you have to be 65+ to go on medicare(and I believe to collect social security) only 19.65% of the population is going to be living off of government money(their own taken by taxes and finally returned, really). Even with your 1 working age person needed to take care of every two retirees(as if all older people were invalids, grumble, ageism, grumble) that would be about 10% of the population taking care of 20%. That leaves 44% to "carry out all the other things that the country now does with 54% of the population". Hardly a terrible decrease given that we have 30 years to prepare.

cattyfan just so you know - in real life between 2015 and 2025 health care costs are going to go through the roof - as half of North Americans will die from old age... and during the same period, half of North Americans will quit work and will try to go on a government pension that is taken out of general revenues. What you call real life is rather pale in comparison to what real life is going to be like in a few short years... I suggest Argentina.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Wait a sec, half dies and half retires? So the country will consist of 150 million old people? Doesn't that sound a bit silly? Or do you mean half die and half of those left retire? Given our the fertility rate of native born Americans(2.0-2.1) and that of the many immigrants that come here every year(2.5-2.7) that seems scarcely more likely. that sounds more like the future position of Italy(1.25 fertility) or Spain(1.38 fertility)

 

[simply one]

On the subject of Neg-Reps, my personal favourite comment:

On Fire - Eat dog excrement and die.

On the subject of Americans getting older -

Yes, it is true that people are living MUCH MUCH longer, and that fewer workers will have to support more, *ahem* seniors...

Yes, it is true that not everyone after 65 retires... many continue working to kkep busy, and i say, Kudos To Them!

And, finally, Yes, This thread needs to be renamed or moved... badly.

 

[Aimiel]

Servent's statistics don't take into account the fact that people are living longer, healthier lives, or that many are continuing to work, even some into their 90's, to support themselves. Guess that's what happens when one doesn't believe The Gospel: they'll just swallow anything.

 

[servent101]

Zimfan you posted right - but you forgot that by 2025 half the people in America will be dead. If you noticed your statistics were for 2030 - by 2030 the death toll will be over. So what you say is right - but what I say is also right - what are the statistics for hospital workers - in Canada half are over fifty - ready to retire at 2016, and there are no real increases in nursing students to take their place.

So why cloud the issue - we are in for some rough times - between 2015 and 2025 - what are the statistics for those years Mr Wise Guy?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[servent101]

Lovejoy

Would you care to cite your statistics?

strictly off the cuff - I just made them up - but......... there is a problem on the horizon - and despite the fact the stats may of been exaggerated a little - the intent was noble - to post some information to warn people that they really do need to start to get ready for the large numbers of people who will stop working and retire. Average age for death after retirement - 8 years. When a person looses a spouse or very close friend the average time till they pass away - two years. Groups of seniors die together... and when there are a lot of old people I suspect there will be a lot of death at once.

This matter is based on logical reasoning and observation – we have no real statistics to go on.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Zimfan]

Zimfan you posted right - but you forgot that by 2025 half the people in America will be dead. If you noticed your statistics were for 2030 - by 2030 the death toll will be over. So what you say is right - but what I say is also right - what are the statistics for hospital workers - in Canada half are over fifty - ready to retire at 2016, and there are no real increases in nursing students to take their place.

So why cloud the issue - we are in for some rough times - between 2015 and 2025 - what are the statistics for those years Mr Wise Guy?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

I just posted the statistics for 2030 because they were the closest to 2025 and I thought 2025 was when you thought those problems would be at their worst. I may be entirely wrong on that guess. In fact, I probably only assumed so because at school when I'm told some problem occurred from year whenever to year whenever the latter date is at the peak and after that things get better. Obviously just because the classes I've had presented things in such a way doesn't mean that you will too. I apologize if I misrepresented your theory.

On the other hand, the stats on the U.S. census site seemed worse(looking at age demographics) for 2030 than for the 2 decades prior. Still, with the baby boomers reaching retiring age, shortly to be joined by their born in the 60's and 70's brethern(a smaller generation, probably a good thing for us. ) I'm sure you're right about half of the Americans alive today dying over the next 20 years. We will be in for some rough times. Still, at least our population is growing. Young people are moving here and having children(as are our young native born). They will grow to working age as all of these people retire(or die, and those we don't neeed to worry about as much). Times may be rough, but I think we'll make it through them ok. Americans are a lot tougher than many realize, and our problems(at least with an aging workforce) are fewer than many European countries(or Japan or soon China) and our productivity higher(with the notable exceptions of Japan and Norway). Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here. Worrying and thinking about solutions is good, panicking about an imminent disaster not so good. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[servent101]

Zimfan -

Wouldn't you agree?

- I would agree that we need to... as you say

Worrying and thinking about solutions is good,

but with the referance between the years 2012 and 2025 - I do not think this lies as you put it in the referance of

panicking about an imminent disaster

... as the social ethical attitude towards anyone who is poor - is as I see it anyways an already occuring imminent disaster - sort of a holocaust right before our eyes - yet the war on liberal ethical humanism is hindering people who do care and want to work towards a sane, humane and just society. I have heard that even in grade six, children are being classified as to how they percieve the world - either conservative or ethcical liberal - and those who do not fit the "conservative mold" are being targeted to live in obscurity for the rest of their lives. Social engeneering seems to be favoring the capitalistic point of view to a literalist extream.

Is this "current" (what cattyfan suggested as in the real world) a mountain or a moehill? Am I panicking or just sharing an observation on a public board? If we were to conclude that since there are no statistics kept on poverty related death in America or Canada - how do government employees determin social policy - and how do people involved in social engeneering determin what is there in our "real world". I am shocked really that we as an educated people have been swallowed by the shortest explination - in which there is no work on our behalf to bring about a solution to a problem. The idea of fooling all of the people some of the time seems to rule the political arena - and the concepts like "no matter what the cost" concerning the rooting out of evil in the middle East - well that is nothing but pure evil in itself - articulating jargon that insites the masses to a vendetta no matter how many people get killed or how much it costs... but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?... well I went on this tangent when cattyfan mentioned the real world - and you can deduce for yourself if there is a chrisis, a problem or just the same old same old.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Zimfan]

Zimfan - - I would agree that we need to... as you say but with the referance between the years 2012 and 2025 - I do not think this lies as you put it in the referance of ... as the social ethical attitude towards anyone who is poor - is as I see it anyways an already occuring imminent disaster - sort of a holocaust right before our eyes - yet the war on liberal ethical humanism is hindering people who do care and want to work towards a sane, humane and just society. I have heard that even in grade six, children are being classified as to how they percieve the world - either conservative or ethcical liberal - and those who do not fit the "conservative mold" are being targeted to live in obscurity for the rest of their lives. Social engeneering seems to be favoring the capitalistic point of view to a literalist extream.

:think: Where have you heard this? When I was in 6th grade my teachers presented a liberal view of ethics as the model to follow more often than the reverse. Of course, I lived in an poor old steel mining town where the vast majority of people were pro-union and pro-social welfare program. Now that I'm in college(despite being in decidedly conservative Texas) Professors are even more liberal in their views on social programs.

Is this "current" (what cattyfan suggested as in the real world) a mountain or a moehill? Am I panicking or just sharing an observation on a public board? If we were to conclude that since there are no statistics kept on poverty related death in America or Canada - how do government employees determin social policy - and how do people involved in social engeneering determin what is there in our "real world". I am shocked really that we as an educated people have been swallowed by the shortest explination - in which there is no work on our behalf to bring about a solution to a problem. The idea of fooling all of the people some of the time seems to rule the political arena - and the concepts like "no matter what the cost" concerning the rooting out of evil in the middle East - well that is nothing but pure evil in itself - articulating jargon that insites the masses to a vendetta no matter how many people get killed or how much it costs... but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?... well I went on this tangent when cattyfan mentioned the real world - and you can deduce for yourself if there is a chrisis, a problem or just the same old same old.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

:chuckle: Probably both, actually. The same old, same old is a state of continuous crisis. The crisis may change from time to time, but we always seem to be having one. What do you consider a poverty-related death? Death by exposure or lack of food? Both of those seem to me to be rather rare in the U.S. [7 years of my life were spent living in a household run by a single woman(my mother) living well below the poverty line and neither we nor any of the other poor people we knew starved to death]. How common do you think poverty-related deaths are and how do you know? What do you propose we do about this problem?

 

[servent101]

Zimfan

How common do you think poverty-related deaths are and how do you know? What do you propose we do about this problem?

Good idea - what can we do about it? - well I will take up a challenge - you challenge me to do something your willing to do and I will match it - seems a way to at least do something.

As to how common are poverty related deaths - well I hear that homeless people live for an average of two years once they hit the sidewalks - sleeping outside etc. In New York City there are from some reports upwards of 600,000 that is six hundred thousand homeless people - so statistically that is 300,000 people who die on the street.

Where have you heard this? When I was in 6th grade my teachers presented a liberal view of ethics as the model to follow more often than the reverse. Of course, I lived in an poor old steel mining town where the vast majority of people were pro-union and pro-social welfare program. Now that I'm in college(despite being in decidedly conservative Texas) Professors are even more liberal in their views on social programs.

From the local news programs and documentary's there is a hatred brewing towards liberal ethical humanists. (Fox News for example) What people say in public really has nothing to do with what is out there in the world... I have been from coast to coast in Canada and there is the consistent refusal to help anyone. People have plastered on the City buildings - Stop the street deaths, Stop the war on the poor. Yes I would think your right when you say that there is a number of people in public support of liberal social programs - but I have observed the hostile management for the most part in control of the actual program nuts and bolts. I have met people who have been approached to join with groups who would be taught how to do "everything" detestable - how to be a deciever. Seems in schools all across America - students have to join a gang of some sort to live in peace - these gangs then wage subtle war - discrimination against anyone and everyone who they want to weaken, so they are stronger. If you look for conspiracies you will find them - It seems to me that there are a lot of "covert" groups out there following some occult or part of a coven intent on control and power. I would like to start one of my own - based on good management and ethical principal - a secret society, for if your known - some group will take issue with you just cause they want to spread evil.

Off topic but even our Icons are at Risk - Captain J. T. Kirk of the Star Ship Enterprize - Notice the nut they are making him to be in those recent commercials? Many capatalists called that the most religious show on T.V. - even the series Voyager is no longer in existence - why? - well the absence of crime and greed for one, there is no money in the Star Trek movies - something some people seem to want to discourage.

Anyways if you want to do something

What do you propose we do about this problem?

well whatever you think you can do, I will do the same - as long as it is reasonable - maybe some other people will pick up on the challenge to match what we do.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Zakath]

Servent,

Just a caveat, the "homeless problem" is vastly overstated, at least here in the U.S.

 

[servent101]

Zakath

Just a caveat, the "homeless problem" is vastly overstated, at least here in the U.S.

I disagree - there are real problems in the U.S. in it's attitude towards the poor. It simply is not on the News - People who direct the news do not want to worry the consumer with problems - the news is simply a way to market and harness public opinion for corporate America - sorry Zakath, I have met too many people who tell me horror stories of soup kitchens and shelters. It is part of the social conditioning we are going through - even police officers refer to people who want to help others as bleeding hearts.

By the way I have stated my reasons for considering poverty related deaths a major killer in the good old U.S.f A. - what is your reason for considering it not such a big problem.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Aimiel]

There are far too many 'homeless' in America who are perfectly capable of supporting themselves, and have had far too many handouts. Their 'mooching' off those who are willing to work is tolerated far too much. There are those who are in need, but don't have enough sense to know how to get themselves together enough to support themselves, and there are programs which help them, but (at least in Ohio) don't do a very good job of it. My brother-in-law is a good example. He is schizophrenic, and capable of work, even willing. He works at several odd jobs, but will not get a full-time job, because as soon as he does, he'll be out on the street. His rent is paid, but only as long as he makes less than $80.00 per week. I believe that they ought to have a program where they can get a job, save up some money, and 'practice' supporting themselves before subsistance is pulled out from under them. He has been getting this for almost 20 years now, and probably will never stop. Why should he?

Back to the poor. The poor are frowned upon in the US because most are either lazy or criminal. Those who need help, for the most part, get it.

 

[Zakath]

Zakath

I disagree - there are real problems in the U.S. in it's attitude towards the poor. It simply is not on the News - People who direct the news do not want to worry the consumer with problems - the news is simply a way to market and harness public opinion for corporate America - sorry Zakath, I have met too many people who tell me horror stories of soup kitchens and shelters. It is part of the social conditioning we are going through - even police officers refer to people who want to help others as bleeding hearts.

By the way I have stated my reasons for considering poverty related deaths a major killer in the good old U.S.f A. - what is your reason for considering it not such a big problem.

I have worked in the soup kitchens, the flop houses, and inner city emergency rooms. I have worked with homeless as a layperson and as a clergyman. I have heard horror stories and I have seen first hand lazy, shiftless con artists scam people and organizations out of sizable amounts of money and resources.

Look around you servent. If you see with open eyes, you'll find that millions of alleged "homeless" are artifacts of statistical sampling and crazy government definitions of what it means to be homeless...

For example, do you realize that, at one point, college graduates who have not yet found a place to live on their own were counted as "homeless" on government roles?

There are indeed some homeless people, but not nearly as many as we've been led to believe.

Just like we found back in my little county in WV when we built a homeless shelter in response to the tireless lobbying efforts of a handful of bleeding hearts... our homeless population in the county tripled the year after we opened the shelter... People came to our shelter from as far away as Florida.

Build it, and they will come.

These grifters and con artists are different from the truly poor. And they should be treated differently.

 

[servent101]

Zakath

These grifters and con artists are different from the truly poor. And they should be treated differently.

I agree that there are grifters (drifters) and con artists - so how by treating them differently - whatever that means - how does this help to reabilitate them? - again the idea seems to be acceptable to kick someone and show them no caring - not even keeping track of what happens to them - sort of like smarten up or die - so how is it working, from all that I see the only thing that is doing is putting people with legitamate need for help out the door / creating a burorcracy that kills, and a burocracy that just does not care.

So yes, there are those that abuse the system, and from my observations - to stop that you are going to hurt a whole lot of people - and in trying to stop those that abuse the system - it is futile, theirs is a ful time job, they can get around the loopholes - but the person who needs help is too apt to be simply kicked in the but and told to shape up or die - and NO ONE is keeping track of how social policy is working - the government simply closes it's eyes and keeps no record of how it's policy is working. Currnetly the Department of Health is in control of poor people - and soon the same department of healt will be looking after the ageing American population - and it's attitude towards these drifters and con artists will be focused at American people who have not planned for retirement, or who's investments have gone bad - our old people will be treated the same way the con-artists and thieves are. There really is simply no sympathy for anyone who is poor in America anymore - and the people who demand that there be no abuse of the system are to blame.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Aimiel]

There really is simply no sympathy for anyone who is poor in America anymore - and the people who demand that there be no abuse of the system are to blame.

That's like saying that the people who create a police officer's job are responsible for the crimes that are committed. You really don't have very good focus on reality, do you? The people to blame for abuses are the abusers of the system. Adjusting our 'system' to police itself for abuses is an on-going task, which no longer needs to be ignored.