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  1. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    The divine cannot be reduced to a set of doctrines. Barth is right to warn that Christians often try to construct a ladder of propositions to reach God, as though salvation were something we could secure by assembling the correct system. Doctrines are indispensable, but they are not God; they...
  2. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Karl Barth (CD I/2 §17) maintains that human beings continually construct conceptual and ritual "ladders" to heaven. Whenever we place our own images (whether carved statues or philosophical abstractions) in the place of God, religion becomes a substitute for revelation. Hence his stark...
  3. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    You keep returning to the idea that faith means believing that God exists. But that is not faith. In fact, it is through faith that God manifests, just as in Paul. The Holy Spirit is the mediating Spirit, the One through whom angelic and spiritual communication has traditionally been...
  4. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Instead of climbing a ladder of good deeds, one climbs a ladder of correct ideas. But the ladder is the same. The pride is the same, and the bondage is the same. Faith, however, is not an achievement. It is the Spirit's creation, the heart's surrender, the creature's dependence on the One who...
  5. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Some Christians mistakenly translate faith into "believing the right doctrines." But biblically, faith is not assent to a list of propositions. Faith is trust, fidelity, and dependence on Christ. Doctrines articulate that faith, but they do not create it. When salvation is tied to doctrinal...
  6. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    That is incorrect. When I reference Herrick, for example, it is because I recently read his book. I also cite his work in a recent article, though phrased differently. If I choose to discuss my own theory of atonement, which I've written about, it is natural for the wording to resemble my...
  7. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    The theological framework of my interlocutors appears to share significant structural similarities with Islam, particularly in its emphasis on material and national outcomes. The primary distinction lies in their focus on Israel's elevation rather than its subjugation. From a traditional...
  8. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    The Church Fathers, including Paul, employed participatory language to describe heavenly life. Paul specifically framed this reality through concepts like being "in Christ," "with Christ," and "seated in the heavenly realms." This language frames the believer's present spiritual reality and...
  9. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    This is double‑predestination rhetoric pushed to its extreme, turning pastoral doctrine into speculative philosophy. For Luther, the problem is one of theological focus: it looks to the hidden God of decree rather than the revealed God of the cross. Our moral failures accuse us, but Christ...
  10. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Paul is speaking here about moral conduct. As the Reformers made clear, this does not bring us any closer to God. That view is works‑righteousness, and the Reformers explicitly rejected it. Of course we are to follow the moral law written on the heart, but we must also submit to the guidance of...
  11. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    It seems the only response you people can muster is a John Cleese-style "No it isn't!" from the "Argument Clinic." Humanity's original relationship with God will be restored only after the eschatological resurrection. There is no cumulative progress before that moment, because evil is parasitic...
  12. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    The world is no longer a field of divine forces, angelic agencies, or sacred causal chains; it becomes the arena of creaturely action governed by natural law. Disenchantment is therefore not a loss but the metaphysical prerequisite for creation itself. Only when the world is emptied of divine...
  13. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    You are reasoning far too materialistically, just as many Christians do today. The universe will be created anew, and in that renewed order material substance will share the very nature of the glorified body. Isaiah speaks explicitly of "new heavens and a new earth" in Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22...
  14. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Nonsense. The Church Fathers never taught that the Church has a different destiny from Israel. They saw one people of God, not two. Paul never says that Israel gets the earth and the Church gets heaven. There aren't two different homelands; there's only one olive tree (Romans 11).
  15. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    These are mere words, serving a therapeutic purpose at best. Or will you argue, with radical Reformed theologians, that God's glorious governance finds expression in the Holocaust, the Holodomor, the mass starvations under Mao, and the world wars with their millions of victims?
  16. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Indeed, the kingdom of God is eschatological. It will become our new homeland at the end of the age, but for now it exists as a heavenly realm.
  17. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    When questioned by Pilate, Jesus declares: "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Christ's kingdom is not embedded in the immanent order. It is a transcendent reality, accessed through vertical participation. This is precisely why the modern, disenchanted worldview, where nature is...
  18. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    I am not denying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That indwelling is vertical participation, the ascent of the creature towards the transcendent God, and it is central to my argument. Nothing in my position contradicts Paul's teaching that the Spirit dwells in the believer. The question at...
  19. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    According to Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, and Pseudo‑Dionysius divine presence is veiled to allow creatures to exist as creatures. Aquinas and Bonaventure both teach that Creation requires a kind of divine reticence. In Luther's theology God's hiddenness is necessary for faith and for...
  20. MWinther

    Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

    Nietzsche claimed that Christianity is nihilism, and he was half right. The Christian movement of alienation and disenchantment divides into two paths: nihilism and heavenly participation. It is clear from Jesus' message that he opens the way to both heaven and hell. I have never claimed that...
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