Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

Clete

Truth Smacker
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When literalist Christians tell me to just open the Bible and read it, as if the truth were simply written there in black and white, I can't help thinking they must be joking.
I can assure you that I am not joking.

Lutheran scholars have never been able to agree on biblical interpretation, even though the Reformation principle says Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) is the norm.
That's because they don't "just open the bible and read it, as if the truth were simply written there in black and white"!
Sola Scriptura says that Scripture is the final authority, not that Scripture is self‑interpreting in a way that produces uniformity.
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is self-defeating.

Once you remove a magisterium, every theologian becomes his own interpreter, every pastor becomes his own exegete, and every synod becomes its own doctrinal center.
No they don't. This is an extreme over reaction. There are teachers and there are students. There are leaders and there are followers. Most people are nearly mindless sheep that believe whatever it is they are taught to believe.

Further, the magisterium is nothing at all other than it's own collection of theologians, most of whom don't happen to give a damn what the bible says at all! And to the extent that they consult the scripture, they have carte blanche to "interpret" it any which way they please. How is that better?

The result is not unity but plurality.
So what?

This is why Lutheranism fractured almost immediately after Luther's death. In fact, Lutherans disagreed from the beginning. Luther disagreed with Karlstadt on the Lord's Supper, images, liturgy, and the pace of reform. He disagreed with Melanchthon on free will, the law, the sacraments, and the role of reason. The conflict between Gnesio‑Lutherans vs. Philippists evolved into a full‑blown civil war inside Lutheranism.
Yeah, so what? On some issues Luther was right and on other he was wrong. Why is that so frightening? That's precisely where the scripture finds its value. It stands as an independent and consistent standard against which theologically claims can be rationally tested.

Luther's famous standard is the key. It is not solely the scripture but the plain reading of scripture mixed with the use of sound reason that produces doctrinal truth. Most, including Luther, do not have the humility to adhere to that policy. Indeed, none of us do perfectly, but Luther in particular, was far more faithful to Augustinian teaching than he was the plain reading of the text of scripture.

Sola Scriptura guarantees interpretive diversity, because Scripture is not a commentary on itself.
It is also self-contradictory. There is no scripture that produces the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. It therefore contradicts its own standard the moment it's uttered.

It contains no inspired hermeneutical manual. These require interpretive decisions: law and gospel, wisdom and apocalyptic, narrative and poetry. Some read Scripture through a historical‑critical lens, some through a confessional‑dogmatic lens, some through a pietistic or charismatic lens, and some through a sacramental‑liturgical lens. Sola Scriptura does not adjudicate between these.
There is no question that there are several "lenses" through which one can view the scripture. You seem here to be treating them as if they are all co-equal options that anyone might choose with equal validity as if they are just one choice among several in a theological buffet line. And I'd agree that a great many people treat them as exactly that. They are, of course, not that. They aren't equal at all, by almost any measure you care to name, but the real problem for your position, the problem that you either ignore or are simply blind to, is that Catholicism (i.e. the magesterium) is nothing more than yet another of the lenses you are talking about.

You treat these lenses as if there is no objective means by which to evaluate one against another and as if they are all mutually exclusive of each other. Neither is true. Proper doctrine proceeds from proper hermaneutics. "Hermaneutics" being just a fancy word for the logic used to interpret scripture and to formulate doctrine. Like any other form of logic, the conclusions produced by it are valid if and only if the premises are true and the logic sound.

In the case of Catholicism and the magesterium, neither is the case. Catholics seem to have no incling at all of the need for reasoning from first principles. They don't even seem to have any clearly defined first principles, and to the extent they do, they have even less allegience to them when and if the need to alter them (or reject them outright) comes up. The only real first principle they seem to have is the absolute authority of the magesterium itself. They give lip service to both scripture and tradition but neither can be considered a true first principle because the magesterium has total carte blanche to interpret both in whatever way it sees fit.

Human reason and experience inevitably enter the process. Even Luther admitted this when he said: "Scripture is clear, but not to us." What he means is that clarity is in the text, but the interpreter is clouded. Without a magisterium, the "final authority" becomes the interpreter. This is why Lutheranism, Calvinism, Anabaptism, and later evangelicalism all diverged despite claiming the same principle.
So, rejecting one false principle (the magesterium) and replacing it with another false principle (sola scriptura) leads to a failure that you conclude means we should readopt the former false principle.

The irony is that Lutherans appeal to Scripture alone, but in reality they rely on confessions.
As if a reliance on confessions is their biggest departure from their own stated policy.

Confessional Lutheranism insists that the Bible is the only norm, while the Confessions are the correct interpretation of the Bible. But this only shifts the problem: Who interprets the Confessions? Who decides what counts as "confessional"? Who adjudicates new doctrinal questions not addressed in the 16th century?
Can you really not see how you just crushed YOUR OWN position here?

What answer could they give to such questions that would be inferior to the answer you give and by what standard?

The only answer you could possibly offer would trap you in question begging circularity.

Thus the disagreements continue. Lutheranism claims Scripture alone, but in practice it operates with a thin, rationalized hermeneutic that suppresses the supernatural world of the Bible. The result is a tradition that claims unity in Scripture but lives in interpretive diversity.
As if there isn't widespread doctrinal disagreements within the Catholic church.

At most the Catholic church has one "official" teaching and then there's a million different variations depending on which particular Catholic church you happen to walk into. How many sermons on the evils of abortion do you suppose Nancy Pelosi has ever been forced to sit through?

If the Catholic church is so unified, how is it that Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone can restrict Nancy Pelosi from receiving communion in May and then in June, she recieves communion at the Vatican?

For example, when it is asserted that the Flood narrative depicts a literal, global catastrophe, this contradicts most scholars of religion.
You seem to be addicted to the appeal to popularity fallacy.

Flood myths are widespread across the world and typically express the primordial fear that chaos might engulf the ordered world. The sea functions as a traditional symbol of chaos, as seen in the Gospel account of Jesus stilling the storm on the Sea of Galilee.
Sounds nice, but why should I accept your word over God's?

Why am I to take you to mean what you say and not God?

What is it about you that makes it so easy for you to communicate yourself clearly and so impossible for God to do the same?

Ancient peoples lacked any notion of fixed natural laws; they believed that cosmic order depended on the ongoing favour of the gods. Hence the Aztecs offered sacrifices to ensure that the gods remained benevolent and that the sun would rise again. The underlying logic of the Flood myth is the fear that disorder will erupt when humanity violates divine commands. It carries a warning, one that remains worth taking seriously even today.
Well, you are the first person I have ever seen draw a moral parallel between Noah's flood and Aztec human sacrifice.

Astounding!
 

MWinther

Member
Luther's famous standard is the key. It is not solely the scripture but the plain reading of scripture mixed with the use of sound reason that produces doctrinal truth. Most, including Luther, do not have the humility to adhere to that policy. Indeed, none of us do perfectly, but Luther in particular, was far more faithful to Augustinian teaching than he was the plain reading of the text of scripture.
I am not proposing the reconstruction of a magisterium. I am simply identifying the causes that led to the spread of Protestant sectarianism.

No, Luther was not faithful to Augustine. He dismantled Augustine's entire stratified Christian cosmos and flattened it completely. In the catechism, Luther defines faith as personal trust in God's promise. In doing so, he abolishes the ancient and medieval emphasis on participation, the idea that the divine incarnation continues in the pious human being. One of the legs is cut away, and Christian faith hobbles on like a one‑legged man.

Unlike what Luther says, God is not entirely hidden, as if we could rely only on the God revealed in history. The angelic realm remains accessible through participation. But because Luther abolished this Pauline concept, Lutherans no longer have access to the living God. For Luther, God remains utterly hidden, effectively unreachable.
 

MWinther

Member
As Clete has clearly shown, Catholicism has its own sectarianism. They (and probably you) simply won't admit it.
I am myself a baptized and confessed Lutheran. I could never be a Catholic, standing with one foot in the Middle Ages and the other in modernity. But I remain critical of Protestantism as well. Luther did everything he could to flatten Christian cosmology, and the consequences for Christianity were tragic. The medieval image of ascending the ladder to God was later misread as a scheme of self‑salvation, though in its own context it expressed a participatory theology (koinonia, in Paul's term) in which the believer's ascent signified servitude to God. Luther's catechism marks a decisive break with this participatory ontology, redefining faith not as communion with divine life but as personal trust in the divine promise. We ought to return to participation in the heavenly life. Take back the angels.

I suspect that this absence of spiritual life is what lies behind biblical fundamentalism and the negativity, disrespect, and lack of humility we see among many Christians today.
 
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