Our Moral God

Gary K

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wherever the limits come from, God shows He has limits, correct?
No. He has the infinite ability to control Himself and His emotions. If He didn't we we would not exist. He has infinite patience and wisdom in that He gave the devil enough rope to hang himself as it took 4000 years for him to expose who he really is when he induced the Pharisees to murder Jesus. If He had wiped out the devil as soon as he sinned the result would have been the angels and beings on the unfallen planets would served God from fear, not love. This proves God is love as He desires His created beings to love Him in return for His love for them.

You don't buy that there are other inhabited planets in the universe? Angels are God's messengers.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4397
מלאך
mal'âk mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of {God} that {is} an angel (also a {prophet} priest or teacher): - {ambassador} {angel} {king} messenger.

If there are no other inhabited planets why did God need messengers before sin came into the universe?

The book of Job very strongly implies this.

Job 1: 6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
 

JudgeRightly

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No. He has the infinite ability to control Himself and His emotions. If He didn't we we would not exist. He has infinite patience and wisdom in that He gave the devil enough rope to hang himself as it took 4000 years for him to expose who he really is when he induced the Pharisees to murder Jesus. If He had wiped out the devil as soon as he sinned the result would have been the angels and beings on the unfallen planets would served God from fear, not love. This proves God is love as He desires His created beings to love Him in return for His love for them.

You don't buy that there are other inhabited planets in the universe? Angels are God's messengers.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4397
מלאך
mal'âk mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of {God} that {is} an angel (also a {prophet} priest or teacher): - {ambassador} {angel} {king} messenger.

If there are no other inhabited planets why did God need messengers before sin came into the universe?

The book of Job very strongly implies this.

Job 1: 6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Once again going off topic.

Please stay on topic.
 

Clete

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It isn't just Calvinists, Arminians also believe God is omniscient. It is only the Open Theist and a few others (Mormons by example) that don't hold to Omni's.
So, first of all, I just want to say that it did not go unnoticed that you threw in the little ad hominem/guilt by association jab with the mention of Mormons. It's just another pathetic example of you throwing stones at a caricature of Open Theism.

Open Theists do not reject the Omni's per se, we simply modify them from what Classical theists, including both Calvinists and Arminians teach.

Open Theists believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent in the follow sense of these terms....

Omnipotent: God is the Creator of all things that exist besides Himself. As such, all power comes from Him. He has delegated real power and the real ability and authority to use that power to others. He retains both the ability and the absolute right to recall that power and authority at His sole discretion and is, therefore, not merely all powerful but is the sovereign power of existence.

This is very nearly identical to what most Christians believe! Mostly, in order to depart significantly from this understanding of omnipotence requires one to be "educated" away from it. Fortunately, most churches spend very little time discussing such things in much detail. Typically, the fact that God is omnipotent is merely declared from the pulpit, everyone yells "Amen!" from the pews and the preacher moves on to his next point.

Where the Open Theist departs from the Classical understanding of omnipotence is when theologians use it to introduce irrational concepts into their theology proper. We do not believe that God can go to a place that does not exist, for example. We do not wrestle with stupid conundrums like asking whether God can created an unmovable rock and then move it. It's a stupid question! NO! Of course God could not do any such stupid thing. There's a gigantic list of things that God cannot do, perhaps most important among them is the fact that God cannot make someone love Him. God cannot predestine that someone desires to have a genuine two way loving reciprocal relationship with Him (or with anyone else, for that matter).

The limitations Open Theists place on the other omni's are similar....

Omniscient: God knows everything that is knowable - that He desires to know.

Omnipresent: God is everywhere that exists at once - if He wants to be there.

Everyone seems to want to freak out over the qualifications we place on those two doctrines but it is just an application of omnipotence to those doctrines. All we are saying is that no one can force God to do something that He doesn't want to do. He isn't required to watch every single event that happens. God does not care about which photon of light is leaving off the back side of Polaris nor is He required to sit and watch while people commit gross sin nor is He omni-voyeuristic where He is unable to give people privacy if He so chooses to do so.

It takes more than Omniscience, however, to prove determinism.
Well, if within Omniscience you include exhaustive infallible foreknowledge of the future, as both the Calvinist and Arminians do then....

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am
  1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
  2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
  3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
  4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
  5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
  6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
  7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
  8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
  9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
  10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
Source

In short, if you believe that we have a real ability to do or to do otherwise - to choose our actions - then the Classical understanding of Omniscience must be modified. Welcome to Open Theism!

If I get an almanac from the future, I've absolutely no ability to change outcomes. It is only if I purposefully interact to stop something, that the future could perhaps change (God can do that anytime). What it means, logically, is that there is no substance to the indictment: It doesn't matter what one knows, but rather if they act upon it. You'd say that a quarterback had no choice but to win the superbowl, but it doesn't add up. It is rather an enigma, rather than determinism, by proof of the almanac.
You are trying to have it both ways. You want to propose a situation where the future is known but not determined. That is a contradiction on its face. If the future is only known unless someone acts to change it then isn't it also known whether that action will be taken? Is the action that changes part of the future not itself part of the future?

The fact that such paradoxical nonsense is entirely unavoidable when discussing things like this is strong evidence, if not outright proof, that time does not exist. The past is what used to exist and the future does not yet exist. All that exists, exists now. Reality is perpetually in the present.
 

Clete

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No. He has the infinite ability to control Himself and His emotions. If He didn't we we would not exist. He has infinite patience and wisdom in that He gave the devil enough rope to hang himself as it took 4000 years for him to expose who he really is when he induced the Pharisees to murder Jesus. If He had wiped out the devil as soon as he sinned the result would have been the angels and beings on the unfallen planets would served God from fear, not love. This proves God is love as He desires His created beings to love Him in return for His love for them.

You don't buy that there are other inhabited planets in the universe? Angels are God's messengers.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4397
מלאך
mal'âk mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of {God} that {is} an angel (also a {prophet} priest or teacher): - {ambassador} {angel} {king} messenger.

If there are no other inhabited planets why did God need messengers before sin came into the universe?

The book of Job very strongly implies this.

Job 1: 6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
FYI: The satan in Job is likely not THE Satan, (i.e. the fallen angel formerly known as Lucifer). The term "satan", as used in Job, is a title, not a proper name. It means "adversary" or "accuser". It isn't IMPOSSIBLE that it was Lucifer but there's good reason to think it wasn't, not the least of which is that there was no Jewish tradition that taught that Satan was a fallen angel. That's a much later idea that didn't exist prior to the Christian era. Also, there would be no reason for God to allow the fallen Lucifer into His divine presense, never mind be persuaded to act on his advice.
 

Gary K

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FYI: The satan in Job is likely not THE Satan, (i.e. the fallen angel formerly known as Lucifer). The term "satan", as used in Job, is a title, not a proper name. It means "adversary" or "accuser". It isn't IMPOSSIBLE that it was Lucifer but there's good reason to think it wasn't, not the least of which is that there was no Jewish tradition that taught that Satan was a fallen angel. That's a much later idea that didn't exist prior to the Christian era. Also, there would be no reason for God to allow the fallen Lucifer into His divine presense, never mind be persuaded to act on his advice.
John 8: 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[*StrongsGreek*]
01228
διάβολος diábolos, dee-ab'-ol-os
from 1225;
a traducer; specially, Satan [compare 07854]:--false accuser, devil, slanderer.


Noun: traducer tru'd(y)oo-su(r)
  1. One who attacks the reputation of another by slander or libel
    - defamer, maligner, slanderer, vilifier, libeler [US], backbiter, calumniator [formal], libeller [Brit, Cdn]
Derived forms: traducers

Type of: depreciator, detractor, disparager, knocker
 

Derf

Well-known member
No. He has the infinite ability to control Himself and His emotions.
How can you tell that God has infinite ability to control His emotions? Do you have a scripture to offer? If not, then isn't it a man-made idea? Here are some scriptures to counter the idea:
[Gen 6:3 KJV] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

"Shall not always" could be rendered "shall not infinitely".

And:
[2Pe 3:8 KJV] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[2Pe 3:9 KJV] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is longsuffering (patient), not willing that any should perish. His patience is such that a day is like a 1000 years not like infinity.

And we know that His patience runs out eventually, because He has planned a judgment for all men.


If He didn't we we would not exist. He has infinite patience and wisdom in that He gave the devil enough rope to hang himself as it took 4000 years
4000 years is not infinite.
for him to expose who he really is when he induced the Pharisees to murder Jesus. If He had wiped out the devil as soon as he sinned the result would have been the angels and beings on the unfallen planets would served God from fear, not love. This proves God is love as He desires His created beings to love Him in return for His love for them.
It might prove God is love, but it doesn't prove that His patience is infinite.

I don't know what to do with the rest of this, so I'll ignore it for now. Let me know if you think it is actually related.

You don't buy that there are other inhabited planets in the universe? Angels are God's messengers.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
4397
מלאך
mal'âk mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of {God} that {is} an angel (also a {prophet} priest or teacher): - {ambassador} {angel} {king} messenger.

If there are no other inhabited planets why did God need messengers before sin came into the universe?

The book of Job very strongly implies this.

Job 1: 6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
 

Gary K

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Banned
How can you tell that God has infinite ability to control His emotions? Do you have a scripture to offer? If not, then isn't it a man-made idea? Here are some scriptures to counter the idea:
[Gen 6:3 KJV] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

"Shall not always" could be rendered "shall not infinitely".

And:
[2Pe 3:8 KJV] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[2Pe 3:9 KJV] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is longsuffering (patient), not willing that any should perish. His patience is such that a day is like a 1000 years not like infinity.

And we know that His patience runs out eventually, because He has planned a judgment for all men.



4000 years is not infinite.

It might prove God is love, but it doesn't prove that His patience is infinite.

I don't know what to do with the rest of this, so I'll ignore it for now. Let me know if you think it is actually related.
Once again, I'm shocked at your reply. Do you really believe God should allow sin to exist for eternity with millions of Hitlers, Stalins, Chairman, Maos. big pharmas to create incredible suffering before death for trillions of people? How does that demonstrate the love of God?

Revelation demonstrates conclusively that this will never happen, so even your question isn't Biblical.
 

Clete

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John 8: 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[*StrongsGreek*]
01228
διάβολος diábolos, dee-ab'-ol-os
from 1225;
a traducer; specially, Satan [compare 07854]:--false accuser, devil, slanderer.


Noun: traducer tru'd(y)oo-su(r)
  1. One who attacks the reputation of another by slander or libel
    - defamer, maligner, slanderer, vilifier, libeler [US], backbiter, calumniator [formal], libeller [Brit, Cdn]
Derived forms: traducers

Type of: depreciator, detractor, disparager, knocker
Glad to see that we agree on something.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Once again, I'm shocked at your reply. Do you really believe God should allow sin to exist for eternity with millions of Hitlers, Stalins, Chairman, Maos. big pharmas to create incredible suffering before death for trillions of people? How does that demonstrate the love of God?
So you are admitting that God either doesn't have infinite patience, or He at least doesn't exercise it, right? And you admit that the Bible never claims infinite patience as one of His attributes?
Revelation demonstrates conclusively that this will never happen,
Therefore you no longer believe God has always infinite patience?
 

Gary K

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So you are admitting that God either doesn't have infinite patience, or He at least doesn't exercise it, right? And you admit that the Bible never claims infinite patience as one of His attributes?

Therefore you no longer believe God has always infinite patience?
No. Your claim that God has to show infinite patience by allowing sin to continue for eternity is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. I think it is satanic as only the devil is cruel enough to torture people for eternity. He's the exact opposite of God.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No. Your claim that God has to show infinite patience by allowing sin to continue for eternity is one of the cruelest things I've ever heard. I think it is satanic as only the devil is cruel enough to torture people for eternity. He's the exact opposite of God.
I'm just saying that you have no biblical evidence for God's "infinite patience." But if that's what He had, then He would allow sin to continue for eternity. How else do you define "infinite patience"?

Since both you and I reject the idea that God would let sin continue forever, then we BOTH reject "infinite patience". If God merely has infinite patience, but He never exercises it, and the bible never affirms He has it, then it is a meaningless thing to introduce in this conversation.

So why would you introduce a meaningless concept into the conversation? I suggest that you did it to garner emotional support for your position. Who wouldn't agree with God having infinite patience? But what we are trying to work with in this conversation is the biblical description of God. That's even what you wanted to discuss, because you said you weren't interested in man-made concepts of God.

Now, what other aspects of God's infiniteness should we discuss? His infinite anger? His infinite jealousy? Do these terms, coupled with "infinite", really describe God? If not, then maybe we should not just apply the term "infinite" to any aspect of God without some biblical basis.
 
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Gary K

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I'm just saying that you have no biblical evidence for God's "infinite patience." But if that's what He had, then He would allow sin to continue for eternity. How else do you define "infinite patience"?

Since both you and I reject the idea that God would let sin continue forever, then we BOTH reject "infinite patience". If God merely has infinite patience, but He never exercises it, and the bible never affirms He has it, then it is a meaningless thing to introduce in this conversation.

So why would you introduce a meaningless concept into the conversation? I suggest that you did it to garner emotional support for your position. Who wouldn't agree with God having infinite patience? But what we are trying to work with in this conversation is the biblical description of God. That's even what you wanted to discuss, because you said you weren't interested in man-made concepts of God.

Now, what other aspects of God's infiniteness should we discuss? His infinite anger? His infinite jealousy? Do these terms, coupled with "infinite", really describe God? If not, then maybe we should not just apply the term "infinite" to any aspect of God without some biblical basis.
If God is infinite love, then infinite patience goes right along with it. Love and patience go hand in hand. If a parent truly loves their children will they be impatient with them?
 

JudgeRightly

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If God is infinite love, then infinite patience goes right along with it. Love and patience go hand in hand. If a parent truly loves their children will they be impatient with them?

What happens when the one He loves rejects Him?

What does Scripture say?
 

Gary K

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What happens when the one He loves rejects Him?

What does Scripture say?
Is God a hypocrite? Jesus came and died for those who rejected Him too unless you're a Calvinist. So is He then going to despise them? That's what a hypocrite would do. Does a parent despise his child because his kid turns out bad? Only a really lousy parent would do that.
 

JudgeRightly

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Is God a hypocrite? Jesus came and died for those who rejected Him too unless you're a Calvinist. So is He then going to despise them? That's what a hypocrite would do. Does a parent despise his child because his kid turns out bad? Only a really lousy parent would do that.

You didn't answer the question.

What happens when the one He loves rejects Him?

Does Scripture say anything about what He does?
 

Gary K

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You didn't answer the question.

What happens when the one He loves rejects Him?

Does Scripture say anything about what He does?
Ultimately God puts them to death. So what? He does that for the ultimate good of the universe. Sin can not be allowed to become perpetual because of what it6 does to people. God's solution is far more loving than perpetual sinning as sin is self destructiveness. Look around you in this world and tell me it is loving not to ultimately destroy sin and sinners after everyone has made their final choice as to who they will follow.

Revelation 22: 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

2Peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

God has given everyone the opportunity to know what is coming. So He is loving, just, and merciful when He destroys sin and sinners as there is not mercy without justice. Being just in no way destroys love. But being unjust destroys the concept of love for no one can be loving while not being truthful and just. Ever had anyone treat you unjustly? How loving did that feel?
 

JudgeRightly

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Ultimately God puts them to death.

So........ God does not have infinite patience...?


We're exploring your position here, and we've already come across a point that conflicts with another.

God cannot be "infinitely patient" and "put people to death" (your words). Does not "infinite patience" mean God can wait forever for someone to repent of their rebellion?

Do you not see the problem with your position?

Look around you in this world and tell me it is loving not to ultimately destroy sin and sinners after everyone has made their final choice as to who they will follow.

"Final choice" and "infinite patience" conflict, Gary.

What if God were to wait longer, surely they would eventually come around, no? God is surely patient enough for that, being infinitely patient, right?

No?

Huh! Guess He's not infinitely patient then...

God has given everyone the opportunity to know what is coming. So He is loving, just, and merciful when He destroys sin and sinners as there is not mercy without justice. Being just in no way destroys love. But being unjust destroys the concept of love for no one can be loving while not being truthful and just. Ever had anyone treat you unjustly? How loving did that feel?

You keep going off topic.

The current topic of the thread (or at least, this portion of it) is your claim that God has "infinite patience." So far, what you've described is not a God of infinite patience, but a God of finite patience, who eventually has to say, "Enough, I've waited long enough for you to repent, and you show no signs of repenting, thus, because rebellion against Me will not be tolerated, you must face the consequences."

Do you see the problem yet?
 

Gary K

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So........ God does not have infinite patience...?



We're exploring your position here, and we've already come across a point that conflicts with another.

God cannot be "infinitely patient" and "put people to death" (your words). Does not "infinite patience" mean God can wait forever for someone to repent of their rebellion?

Do you not see the problem with your position?



"Final choice" and "infinite patience" conflict, Gary.

What if God were to wait longer, surely they would eventually come around, no? God is surely patient enough for that, being infinitely patient, right?

No?

Huh! Guess He's not infinitely patient then...



You keep going off topic.

The current topic of the thread (or at least, this portion of it) is your claim that God has "infinite patience." So far, what you've described is not a God of infinite patience, but a God of finite patience, who eventually has to say, "Enough, I've waited long enough for you to repent, and you show no signs of repenting, thus, because rebellion against Me will not be tolerated, you must face the consequences."

Do you see the problem yet?
The following scripture applies to you.

Matthew 22: 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
 

Clete

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I like your attitude but I don't think we agree. Jesus said the devil was liar from the beginning. That can only mean Lucifer.
What does that have to do with what I said about the term 'satan' as used in the book of Job?

The term satan, AS USED IN THE BOOK OF JOB, is not a proper name, it is a title. The Hebrew word simply means "adversary". There was no teaching or tradition in ancient times of Lucifer being called "Satan" (i.e. the proper name) as we call him today. Lucifer is not merely a fallen angel, he is a fallen Archangel who thought himself equal with God. There's no indication that "the adversary" in Job was not submissive to God. There's also no reason for God to allow Lucifer to be included in the council of "the sons of God" as it's called in Job 1, much less heed anything he had to say.

Also, the idea that it is Lucifer, just doesn't seem to fit the narrative. God was sanctioning and regulating what this adversary was doing to Job. That doesn't sound like anything that either God or Lucifer would be willing to do.
 
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