Can God lie?

[Tambora]

But that's not the same as God lying.

It shows that God (or anyone) can lie and it not be something wrong to do in a given situation.
It wouldn't stain God in any way.

 

[Clete]

Such a question is equally valid for any god ever dreamed up. In other words, if you were in another religion, you couldn't question Zeus, or Baal, or Ishtar, or whomever in that religion.

The one God that is beyond question is the one we are allowed to question...because He is able to withstand such questioning. His credentials to claim the moral high ground are impeccable.

Malachi 3:10 KJV — Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

That is the best post I've read on TOL in years!

COMPLETELY BRILLIANT!!!!

 

[Clete]

Not only does @Clete post (I'll put it in the spoiler) show that God has no problem with lies and depending on the situation has no problem directly sending one to lie, but there is another story that may show that God lied in the sense that what He predicted did not happen.

Spoiler

This is a rabbit trail but I can't resist....

Given your statement above, what do you do with the following passage...

I Kings 22:19 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
Clete

1 Samuel 23
(10) Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
(11) Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down.
(12) Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up.


Didn't happen.

Wow! That's one I hadn't noticed before.

That's a tough one to explain, or, at least, it isn't as intuitively understood as the other examples that have been shown. What do you suppose was going on there?

 

[Hoping]

Such a question is equally valid for any god ever dreamed up. In other words, if you were in another religion, you couldn't question Zeus, or Baal, or Ishtar, or whomever in that religion.

The one God that is beyond question is the one we are allowed to question...because He is able to withstand such questioning. His credentials to claim the moral high ground are impeccable.

Malachi 3:10 KJV — Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Good answer.
He will assume the high ground in response to doubters.

 

[Derf]

Good answer.
He will assume the high ground in response to doubters.

I'm not sure what you mean by "assume the high ground".

 

[Derf]

It shows that God (or anyone) can lie and it not be something wrong to do in a given situation.
It wouldn't stain God in any way.

But it doesn't show that God can lie, or ever does. Not does it show that He ever needs to lie.

 

[Hoping]

I'm not sure what you mean by "assume the high ground".

It was in response to..."His credentials to claim the moral high ground are impeccable."
We are in agreement.

 

[Derf]

How so?

God is what He is.

What does "the epitome of absoluteness" even mean?

Epitome: a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.

Absolute (adj.):
* not qualified or diminished in any way; total
* (of powers or rights) not subject to any limitation
* (of a ruler) having unrestricted power.
"he proclaimed himself absolute monarch"
* viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative.
(noun):
* something that exists without being dependent on anything else.
noun: the absolute
* ultimate reality; God.

Any questions?

For that matter, what does it mean to say the God is all powerful,

He can accomplish what He wants to accomplish--nobody can stop Him.
Isaiah 46:10 KJV — Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jeremiah 32:17 KJV — Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

all knowing

He knows everything that can be known.

, all wise

He knows what to do in any situation that comes up.
1 Timothy 1:17 KJV — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

, and all present?

Matthew 28:20 KJV — Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Are you certain that those ideas are biblical? They sound Greek to me, as in Aristotelian.

Those aren't Greek scriptures, but Christian.

Biblically, we know that God is the fountainhead of all power but that He delegates power to others and grants them the ability to do things for themselves.

What He can grant, He can take away, or overcome.

We know that God can do anything doable, that He wants to do but that He cannot do the rationally absurd, like be in a place that does not exist or create a perfect cube that has only four sides or any other self-contradictory thing.

I wasn't arguing for such.

Biblically, we know that God knows all that is knowable

Ok

that He wants to know

I don't see this caveat in scripture.

and that He is able to find out that which He doesn't already know.

Agreed

We know that God is perfectly, wise in that there can be no such thing as an error of His judgment or a flaw in His understanding.

Right.

And, finally, we know that God can be present at all places at once but that He is only in those places that He chooses to be.

Ok.

The typical dogma that is taught concerning these issues in most Christian circles comes from the Greek philosophy of the Classics that was imported into Christianity by Augustine and goes well beyond the biblical material, which I could establish if you feel it necessary.

I don't think we're in disagreement on these points.

This presupposes that all lying is evil and, worse than that, that God sanctions choosing the lesser of two evils. That cannot be the case, for what is hopefully obvious reasons. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Obvious to you and me might not be biblical. Can you show in scripture where choosing the lesser of two evils is wrong?

God does not sanction evil and He most certainly does not reward evil - period.

You are, however, quite correct when you observe that "the immoral sort of lying", presumes a "moral sort of lying,".
Why do you reject that premise? Isn't the biblical material compelling?

It is. I don't reject the premise, but see it as a lesser of two evils, justified by the ruling power commanding the greater evil.

Well, there's what you think and then there's the plain reading of HIS word? Why do you believe your thinking over God's own testimony?

I Kings 22:20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’​

So far nothing amiss.

So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’​

Still ok, right?

So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’​

Does this mean God condones lying spirits? Or does it mean God allows lying spirits when the king had already rejected God's truth? Ahab tells us the answer, but you didn't include that part of the story:
1 Kings 22:8 KJV — And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”​

Notice that this passage quotes The Lord God Himself. "Go out and do so.", are the words that the scripture puts into God's own mouth.

Given the above passage and the others cited by JudgeRightly, I see two and only two alternatives.

1. God not only sanctions but orders his prophets to do evil and is, therefore, evil Himself, or...
2. Lying is not always evil.

Clete

His prophets? Where did His prophets lie?
1 Kings 22:7 KJV — And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
Jehoshaphat knew Ahab's prophets were not the LORD's.

"Go out and do so" means God allows someone to do something evil, but doesn't mean He condones the evil. Similar to here:
Job 1:12 KJV — And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
And here:
Luke 22:31 KJV — And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
And here:
Genesis 3:1 KJV — Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

These three Are times when Satan was tempting people to sin. And God gave permission for him to do so. Yet we can't accuse God of tempting those people Himself.
James 1:13 KJV — Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[Tambora]

Wow! That's one I hadn't noticed before.

That's a tough one to explain, or, at least, it isn't as intuitively understood as the other examples that have been shown. What do you suppose was going on there?

I'll just say that I don't have a problem with God saying something is going to happen but it doesn't happen (as in this case and the case of Jonah and Nineveh).
Nor do I have a problem that God's will was to send a spirit to lie to Ahab's prophets.
I figure He knows best what needs to be said that will get the results He needs done.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can you show in scripture where choosing the lesser of two evils is wrong?

Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Do not do evil that good may come of it.

For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:7-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:7-8&version=NKJV

 

[Clete]

Epitome: a person or thing that is a perfect example of a particular quality or type.

Absolute (adj.):
* not qualified or diminished in any way; total
* (of powers or rights) not subject to any limitation
* (of a ruler) having unrestricted power.
"he proclaimed himself absolute monarch"
* viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative.
(noun):
* something that exists without being dependent on anything else.
noun: the absolute
* ultimate reality; God.

Any questions?

Yes. Same question as before. What does it mean to be the "epitome of absoluteness"?
The point being that I doubt that you can explain it because its basically a meaningless thing to say. It is, at best, a tautology, which is why I said that "God is what He is.".

He can accomplish what He wants to accomplish--nobody can stop Him.

False.

King Sol

I Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever.​

​

The nation of Israel

Romans 1120 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?​

That's just to name a couple of things God was willing to do something with and could not because of unbelief and sin.
And - for good measure.....

Isaiah 5:1Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​

A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​

​

My Well-beloved has a vineyardOn a very fruitful hill.​

2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​

And planted it with the choicest vine.​

He built a tower in its midst,​

And also made a winepress in it;​

So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

But it brought forth wild grapes.​

​

3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,​

Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.​

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard​

That I have not done in it?​

Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​

I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​

And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​

6 I will lay it waste;​

It shall not be pruned or dug,​

But there shall come up briers and thorns.​

I will also command the clouds​

That they rain no rain on it.”​

​

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​

And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​

He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​

For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.​

Isaiah 46:10 KJV — Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God is able to predict from the start what the end of some situation is LIKELY to be. And with God doing the predicting, it is VERY likely indeed but it isn't an absolute guarantee. There are several examples in the bible where God said something would happen and it never did - and for good reason.

Jeremiah 32:17 KJV — Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Quite so, as a general statement. God, however, cannot do the rationally absurd. Things like forcing someone to love Him (or someone else), or creating a rock so big that He can't lift it and then lifting it. Not even God can have His cake and eat it too.

He knows everything that can be known.

...that He wants to know.

Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”​

​

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”​

He knows what to do in any situation that comes up.
1 Timothy 1:17 KJV — Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

God is, indeed, infinitely wise.

Matthew 28:20 KJV — Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Those aren't Greek scriptures, but Christian.

And none of them support the ideas imported by Augustine into the Christian faith from Aristotle and Plato. Aristotle's god very simply is not the God of scripture. And make no mistake about it, if you believe in the Classical attributes of God, you do so BECAUSE of Augustine, not because of scripture.

What He can grant, He can take away, or overcome.

But does not choose to do so and for good reason. What you are suggesting here is that God's final answer would be to end the human race, which He will do, more or less, eventually but, in the mean time, God cannot be blamed for the things others choose to do, whether they be angels, demons or men and as such is neither "sovereign" nor "omnipotent" in the Augustinian sense of those terms.

I wasn't arguing for such.

Not directly, no.

I don't think we're in disagreement on these points.

Well, you're obviously no Calvinist so we are very much more in agreement than not, but there is still a tint of Augustinian doctrine that I can detect in your theology.

Obvious to you and me might not be biblical. Can you show in scripture where choosing the lesser of two evils is wrong?

What? Choosing evil of any sort is wrong!

It is. I don't reject the premise, but see it as a lesser of two evils, justified by the ruling power commanding the greater evil.

So God, in your view, is guilty of committing a "lesser evil"?

Why? Where is the profit in taking such a position? Isn't it more reasonable to simply accept that lying is not always evil? Why is the status of lying as a sin taken as precedence over God's own character?

Does this mean God condones lying spirits? Or does it mean God allows lying spirits when the king had already rejected God's truth? Ahab tells us the answer, but you didn't include that part of the story:
1 Kings 22:8 KJV — And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

God was asked whether someone should go tell a lie to deceive the king of Israel and He responded by saying "Go and do so."

His prophets? Where did His prophets lie?
1 Kings 22:7 KJV — And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might enquire of him?
Jehoshaphat knew Ahab's prophets were not the LORD's.

"Go out and do so" means God allows someone to do something evil, but doesn't mean He condones the evil. Similar to here:

It means that He not only condoned it, He commanded it, Derf! What are you even talking about here?!

It's not even as if this is the only biblical example that has been show to you. We have biblical examples of God not simply condoning, not merely allowing but directly consulting with people recommending a lie and Him not simply agreeing but commanding that it be done. We also have examples of God directly rewarding people for telling lies in certain situations.

Job 1:12 KJV — And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
And here:
Luke 22:31 KJV — And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
And here:
Genesis 3:1 KJV — Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

These three Are times when Satan was tempting people to sin. And God gave permission for him to do so. Yet we can't accuse God of tempting those people Himself.
James 1:13 KJV — Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

None of these are relevant!

Why?

Because lying is not always a sin! That's why! That is THE reason why, Derf!

That I Kings passage isn't about God giving Satan or anyone else the authority to tempt the spirit to lie, God directly and explicitly told the spirit "Go and do it.", which He did through the mouths of Ahab's prophets.

I Kings 22: 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”​

Again, I'm not understanding why there is such a clinging to the notion that a lie must always be considered a sin to the point that you're willing to accept that the God of Creation not only rewards evil but is Himself guilty of evil, even if it is the lesser of two evils. How is that position superior to simply accepting that, in certain situations, lying is a good and godly thing to do?

What was the other evil, by they way? What was the dilemma that God found Himself in where He was forced to choose the evil of lying to Ahab over some other worse evil? What worse evil?

Clete

 

[Derf]

Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

Do not do evil that good may come of it.

For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:7-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:7-8&version=NKJV

In the cases we have in the bible where lying was rewarded by God, one could very easily say they were choosing the lesser of two evils, because they were lying to their authority figures. The only way such could be justified with your response is to say it is never a sin to lie to someone in authority over you. I don't think you believe that.

Therefore lying to authority, being sin/evil, may be considered the lesser of two evils, and only allowed when no other route exists, or seems to exist, to save the life of another person.

Remember that God reckons things to be righteous sometimes that aren't righteous in and of themselves. Abraham's faith, for instance, was not an act of righteousness, but was reckoned such by God. I suppose the midwives' and Rahab's lies could be the same.

If you just say "lying is always ok to an evil authority," it puts you in dangerous territorry, imo.

 

[Clete]

I'll just say that I don't have a problem with God saying something is going to happen but it doesn't happen (as in this case and the case of Jonah and Nineveh).
Nor do I have a problem that God's will was to send a spirit to lie to Ahab's prophets.
I figure He knows best what needs to be said that will get the results He needs done.

I can live with that.

 

[Clete]

In the cases we have in the bible where lying was rewarded by God, one could very easily say they were choosing the lesser of two evils, because they were lying to their authority figures. The only way such could be justified with your response is to say it is never a sin to lie to someone in authority over you. I don't think you believe that.

We don't believe that because that isn't "the only way such could be justified".

Rather than saying that 'it is never a sin to lie to someone in authority over you' we say, in agreement with the biblical material, that 'it is NOT ALWAYS a sin to lie to someone in authority over you'.

Pretty easy to understand, really.

 

[Derf]

Yes. Same question as before. What does it mean to be the "epitome of absoluteness"?
The point being that I doubt that you can explain it because its basically a meaningless thing to say. It is, at best, a tautology, which is why I said that "God is what He is.".

If God is the absolute authority, and the bible, as His absolutely authoritative word to us, says He doesn't lie, why is it we feel we know better?

False.

King Sol

1 Samuel 13:13 “You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.​

What did God want to accomplish in this case? It wasn't just to establish Saul's kingdom, but to establish a good and righteous kingdom, eventually through His own Son. He's not going to fail.

​

The nation of Israel

Romans 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.​

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!​

That's just to name a couple of things God was willing to do something with and could not because of unbelief and sin.
And - for good measure.....

Isaiah 5:1 I will sing for the one I love​

a song about his vineyard:​

My loved one had a vineyard​

on a fertile hillside.​

2 He dug it up and cleared it of stones​

and planted it with the choicest vines.​

He built a watchtower in it​

and cut out a winepress as well.​

Then he looked for a crop of good grapes,​

but it yielded only bad fruit.​

​

3 “Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and people of Judah,​

judge between me and my vineyard.​

4 What more could have been done for my vineyard​

than I have done for it?​

When I looked for good grapes,​

why did it yield only bad?​

5 Now I will tell you​

what I am going to do to my vineyard:​

I will take away its hedge,​

and it will be destroyed;​

I will break down its wall,​

and it will be trampled.​

6 I will make it a wasteland,​

neither pruned nor cultivated,​

and briers and thorns will grow there.​

I will command the clouds​

not to rain on it.”​

​

7 The vineyard of the Lord Almighty​

is the nation of Israel,​

and the people of Judah​

are the vines he delighted in.​

And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;​

for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.​

But God has a higher goal, a greater good, than just getting Israel to do what He wants done--He wants Israel to believe in Him. Forcing someone to believe is not getting them to believe, it's removing their personhood, making them no longer capable of belief, since they become a puppet. Puppets don't believe anything.

God is able to predict from the start what the end of some situation is LIKELY to be. And with God doing the predicting, it is VERY likely indeed but it isn't an absolute guarantee. There are several examples in the bible where God said something would happen and it never did - and for good reason.

Only "for good reason". God being mistaken is not a good reason.

Quite so, as a general statement. God, however, cannot do the rationally absurd. Things like forcing someone to love Him (or someone else), or creating a rock so big that He can't lift it and then lifting it. Not even God can have His cake and eat it too.


...that He wants to know.

Genesis 22:12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Genesis 18:21 ....I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

These examples don't say God didn't know the present conditions of Abraham or the Sodomites. What He didn't know was how they would respond to God's tests, whether Abraham would be willing to give his only son and whether the men of Sodom would be willing to repent. Do you think God can't read minds, but needs to actually visit a place to find out what they're thinking?

God is, indeed, infinitely wise.


And none of them support the ideas imported by Augustine into the Christian faith from Aristotle and Plato. Aristotle's god very simply is not the God of scripture. And make no mistake about it, if you believe in the Classical attributes of God, you do so BECAUSE of Augustine, not because of scripture.

I listed things that I could see supported by scripture. You might have noticed they weren't in "omni" and "im" form.

But does not choose to do so and for good reason. What you are suggesting here is that God's final answer would be to end the human race, which He will do, more or less, eventually but, in the mean time, God cannot be blamed for the things others choose to do, whether they be angels, demons or men and as such is neither "sovereign" nor "omnipotent" in the Augustinian sense of those terms.


Not directly, no.


Well, you're obviously no Calvinist so we are very much more in agreement than not, but there is still a tint of Augustinian doctrine that I can detect in your theology.


What? Choosing evil of any sort is wrong!

Choosing the lesser of two evils when no righteous choice is allowed is still choosing righteously.

So God, in your view, is guilty of committing a "lesser evil"?

No. God isn't under any other authority.

Why? Where is the profit in taking such a position? Isn't it more reasonable to simply accept that lying is not always evil? Why is the status of lying as a sin taken precedence over God's own character?

The Muslims say that they are allowed to lie to an infidel. Are we allowed to lie to any unbeliever? Where is line drawn, and who gets to draw it.

God was asked whether someone to tell a lie to deceive the king of Israel and He responded by saying "Go and do so."

God asked for someone to persuade, not for someone to lie. The lying part was the other party's idea. God allowed it.

It means that He not only condoned it, He commanded it, Derf! What are you even talking about here?!

Someone asked permission to lie, and God granted it. But He only granted it knowing that the truth would also be told (by Micaiah). Therefore God did not lie to Ahab, but gave him an option to believe or disbelieve God.

It's not even as if this is the only biblical example that has been show to you. We have biblical examples of God not simply condoning, not merely allowing but directly consulting with people recommending a lie and Him not simply agreeing but commanding that it be done. We also have examples of God directly rewarding people for telling lies in certain situations.


None of these are relevant!

Well, not if your mind is already made up.

Why?

Because lying is not always a sin! That's why! That is THE reason why, Derf!

No, I disagree.

That I Kings passage isn't about God giving Satan or anyone else the authority to tempt the spirit to lie, God directly and explicitly told the spirit "Go and do it.", which He did through the mouths of Ahab's prophets.

I Kings 22: 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”​

Do you think Satan was commanded by God to tempt Adam and Eve, to lie to them? Why or why not?

Do you think Satan tempted them without permission?

Again, I'm not understanding why there is such a clinging to the notion that a lie must always be considered a sin to the point that you're willing to accept that the God of Creation not only rewards evil but is Himself guilty of evil, even if it is the lesser of two evils. How is that position superior to simply accepting that, in certain situations, lying is a good and godly thing to do?

Lying, in and of itself, is not a goodly and godly thing to do. Only in context can it be thought of as goodly or godly. Rip it out of context, and it is an evil thing. If it is evil without the context, then it is evil in the context, but greater evil makes it the better choice, in context.

What was the other evil, by they way? What was the dilemma that God found Himself in where He was forced to choose the evil of lying to Ahab over some other worse evil? What worse evil?

Clete

God wasn't choosing evil. He allowed someone to lie to Ahab, but He also made sure Ahab was told the truth. Similar to Adam and Eve in the garden.

 

[Derf]

We don't believe that because that isn't "the only way such could be justified".

Rather than saying that 'it is never a sin to lie to someone in authority over you' we say, in agreement with the biblical material, that 'it is NOT ALWAYS a sin to lie to someone in authority over you'.

Pretty easy to understand, really.

When is it not a sin to lie to someone in authority?

 

[JudgeRightly]

When is it not a sin to lie to someone in authority?

A few examples.

Two good examples I always think about whenever this topic is brought up:

It is not wrong to lie to the Nazi officer inspecting your house for where you have Jews hidden away, telling him there are no Jews anywhere in your home.

It is not wrong to lie to the slave owner looking for the slave he abused, telling him, "he isn't here," despite you hiding him directly beneath your floorboards, as you prepare to send him to the next stop on the Underground Railroad.

Oh, and another couple of examples, from the Bible...

Rahab lied to the soldiers where the spies from Israel went. She was rewarded for it by God including her in the lineage of Christ.

The Hebrew midwives lied to Pharaoh about how quickly Hebrew women gave birth, to protect the children from being killed. God rewarded them with families of their own.

 

[Derf]

A few examples.

Thanks, but what I'm trying to get from @Clete is a description of the circumstances involved, in order to determine how to make sure we don't go into the ditch of lying for whatever reason we dream up. Surely both you and he will admit that sometimes it IS a sin to lie to authority. What makes it a sin one time and not a sin another?

Examples are just as much proof of my point as his, so we need to clarify to know why his point is the correct way to understand the examples.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thanks, but what I'm trying to get from @Clete is a description of the circumstances involved, in order to determine how to make sure we don't go into the ditch of lying for whatever reason we dream up. Surely both you and he will admit that sometimes it IS a sin to lie to authority. What makes it a sin one time and not a sin another?

Examples are just as much proof of my point as his, so we need to clarify to know why his point is the correct way to understand the examples.

For starters, lying in defense of the innocent seems to be fine, even worthy of rewards from God. Perhaps @Clete can come up with others?

 

[Derf]

For starters, lying in defense of the innocent seems to be fine, even worthy of rewards from God. Perhaps @Clete can come up with others?

Meaning that there is a great evil about to occur (the innocent will be condemned to death, for instance), and we are trying to prevent that evil?