No blood needed

[Clete]

@blackSand

If you do not start responding with some sort of substance that is directly related to the points made against your ridiculous doctrine then what's going to happen is that everyone is going to stop caring about anything you have to say. Nobody here knows you. Nobody here cares what you think. Nobody here cares what you believe. What people here might be interested in is what you can establish, what you can make a rational argument for. So far, its been nothing from you but near completely unintelligible nonsense followed by a moving of goal posts.

Here, you can start by trying to explain away these two passages that present explicit counter examples to your thesis. In both passages, there is BOTH intentional sin and a forgiveness of that intentional sin associated with a blood sacrifice.

Leviticus 19:20 ‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, a ram as a trespass offering. 22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.​

Numbers 5:5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 6 “Speak to the children of Israel: ‘When a man or woman commits any sin that men commit in unfaithfulness against the Lord, and that person is guilty, 7 then he shall confess the sin which he has committed. He shall make restitution for his trespass in full, plus one-fifth of it, and give it to the one he has wronged. 8 But if the man has no relative to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution for the wrong must go to the Lord for the priest, in addition to the ram of the atonement with which atonement is made for him. 9 Every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring to the priest, shall be his. 10 And every man’s holy things shall be his; whatever any man gives the priest shall be his.’ ”​

Here's a hint, blackSand...

It's going to require that you post something longer than two or three sentences. If you refuse, I, for one, will know that it's because you've got nothing!

Clete

 

[marke]

>>> This is exactly my point.
Sacrifices were only for small unintentional sins.
All other sins need a sincere repentance like king David did or capital punishment .
There is no sacrifices for international sins. Example the guy who collected wood on sabbath he was stone to death.

Numbers 15 explains the difference between sins of ignorance and presumptuous sins. Most sins are sins of ignorance and shall be forgiven as shown in Mark 3:

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

The sin that will never be forgiven is the presumptuous sin of rejecting Jesus while under the influence and enlightenment of the Holy Ghost pointing the sinner to Christ for salvation. The man picking up sticks typifies a sinner rejecting God's word when he knew better and knew it was a rebellion against God.

 

[blackSand]

@blackSand

If you do not start responding with some sort of substance that is directly related to the points made against your ridiculous doctrine then what's going to happen is that everyone is going to stop caring about anything you have to say. Nobody here knows you. Nobody here cares what you think. Nobody here cares what you believe. What people here might be interested in is what you can establish, what you can make a rational argument for. So far, its been nothing from you but near completely unintelligible nonsense followed by a moving of goal posts.

Here, you can start by trying to explain away these two passages that present explicit counter examples to your thesis. In both passages, there is BOTH intentional sin and a forgiveness of that intentional sin associated with a blood sacrifice.

Leviticus 19:20 ‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. 21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, a ram as a trespass offering. 22 The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he has committed. And the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.​

Numbers 5:5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 6 “Speak to the children of Israel: ‘When a man or woman commits any sin that men commit in unfaithfulness against the Lord, and that person is guilty, 7 then he shall confess the sin which he has committed. He shall make restitution for his trespass in full, plus one-fifth of it, and give it to the one he has wronged. 8 But if the man has no relative to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution for the wrong must go to the Lord for the priest, in addition to the ram of the atonement with which atonement is made for him. 9 Every offering of all the holy things of the children of Israel, which they bring to the priest, shall be his. 10 And every man’s holy things shall be his; whatever any man gives the priest shall be his.’ ”​

Here's a hint, blackSand...

It's going to require that you post something longer than two or three sentences. If you refuse, I, for one, will know that it's because you've got nothing!

Clete

>>>Truly sorry for annoying anyone especially you.
Unfortunately both examples you post above doesn’t help your arguments.
I have to go to work, but today I will respond and show you how you miss read the above verses. I don’t know if it was intentional or unintentional on your part.

Good day

 

[Hoping]

Numbers 15 explains the difference between sins of ignorance and presumptuous sins. Most sins are sins of ignorance and shall be forgiven as shown in Mark 3:

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

The sin that will never be forgiven is the presumptuous sin of rejecting Jesus while under the influence and enlightenment of the Holy Ghost pointing the sinner to Christ for salvation. The man picking up sticks typifies a sinner rejecting God's word when he knew better and knew it was a rebellion against God.

Those two examples look like the same thing to me.
All disobedience to God will be punished.

Aren't you grateful to God for allowing us to be dead to sin in the NT?
I sure am.

 

[marke]

Those two examples look like the same thing to me.
All disobedience to God will be punished.

Aren't you grateful to God for allowing us to be dead to sin in the NT?
I sure am.

Jesus said all sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. What is the difference between the two sins that is so significant?

 

[Clete]

>>>Truly sorry for annoying anyone especially you.

No, you're not! You couldn't care less! That's part of what makes you so annoying! Don't compound the error by lying about it.

Unfortunately both examples you post above doesn’t help your arguments.

They ARE my arguments!

I have to go to work, but today I will respond and show you how you miss read the above verses. I don’t know if it was intentional or unintentional on your part.

Good day

All I did was quote them! They say what they say!

 

[Hoping]

Jesus said all sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. What is the difference between the two sins that is so significant?

While I see the differences between the two, as accusing Jesus and the works He did of being of the devil is unforgivable while all other sins can be forgiven, what I failed to see is a difference between the "all other" sins, in regard to presumptuous and ignorance.
As there are no sins of ignorance, all sins are weighted by the same scale.
Every sin requires enticement, temptation, and lust. (James 1:14-15)
Without any of those three, there is no sin.
That makes ignorant sin impossible.
One can't lust for or be tempted to do something, in ignorance.
For us Christians, it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No lusts, no sins !
Isn't it great to be "of Christ"?

 

[blackSand]

No, you're not! You couldn't care less! That's part of what makes you so annoying! Don't compound the error by lying about it.


They ARE my arguments!


All I did was quote them! They say what they say!

>>> You did quoted the Leviticus 5:5 and Numbers 19:20 to prove me wrong about the sacrifices were only commanded for unintentional sins.
Well, unfortunately for you these verses prove me right, why?
Because they are “guilt offering” or “trespass offering” not “sin offering” and in case you don’t know the difference or slipped of your mind
Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering and they both (guilt and trespass offering) for unintentional sins only.
Hopefully I helped you understand your faith better.
BTW, not you or anyone else answer my question which I asked too many times:
How king David was forgiven by God and became closed to God’s heart after what he did?
Can you tell me how many rams or chickens he sacrifice?
I understand your frustration toward me because what I am telling you you never heard before.
You’re not alone, relax.

 

[Hoping]

>>> You did quoted the Leviticus 5:5 and Numbers 19:20 to prove me wrong about the sacrifices were only commanded for unintentional sins.
Well, unfortunately for you these verses prove me right, why?
Because they are “guilt offering” or “trespass offering” not “sin offering” and in case you don’t know the difference or slipped of your mind
Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering and they both (guilt and trespass offering) for unintentional sins only.
Hopefully I helped you understand your faith better.
BTW, not you or anyone else answer my question which I asked too many times:
How king David was forgiven by God and became closed to God’s heart after what he did?
Can you tell me how many rams or chickens he sacrifice?
I understand your frustration toward me because what I am telling you you never heard before.
You’re not alone, relax.

Do you really think there is a difference between trespasses and sins?

David lost his son, and his kingdom was taken away from him.
Punishment enough, I'ld say.

 

[blackSand]

Do you really think there is a difference between trespasses and sins?

>>>yes according to the law.
Guilt and trespassing offering designed only for unintentional sins.

David lost his son, and his kingdom was taken away from him.
Punishment enough, I'ld say.

>>>David admitted his wrong doing and repent and this was good enough for God to forgive him.
No sacrifices required.
God loves the sinner when he/she repent more than the ones who never sin.
We been told I am a sinner, you’re a sinner we all sinners but no one told us repentance door is open and God waiting for us to forgive us.
God is a loving, merciful God.
In his Psalms 51 in beautiful way king David repent and acknowledge his sin and God accept it.
God is awesome.

 

[marke]

While I see the differences between the two, as accusing Jesus and the works He did of being of the devil is unforgivable while all other sins can be forgiven, what I failed to see is a difference between the "all other" sins, in regard to presumptuous and ignorance.
As there are no sins of ignorance, all sins are weighted by the same scale.
Every sin requires enticement, temptation, and lust. (James 1:14-15)
Without any of those three, there is no sin.
That makes ignorant sin impossible.
One can't lust for or be tempted to do something, in ignorance.
For us Christians, it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No lusts, no sins !
Isn't it great to be "of Christ"?

The Holy Ghost enlightens every man that comes into the world. At a specific time in his life the Holy Ghost will point every man to Jesus for salvation and the light will be undeniably clear. If a sinner rejects the clear and understandable witness of the Holy Ghost during that visitation and hardens his heart and blasphemes the object of the Holy Ghost's message (that Jesus is the only Savior of the world and sinners must believe in Jesus) then that sin of rejection and blasphemy is not in ignorance and is not forgivable.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Clete]

>>> You did quoted the Leviticus 5:5 and Numbers 19:20 to prove me wrong about the sacrifices were only commanded for unintentional sins.
Well, unfortunately for you these verses prove me right, why?
Because they are “guilt offering” or “trespass offering” not “sin offering” and in case you don’t know the difference or slipped of your mind
Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering and they both (guilt and trespass offering) for unintentional sins only.

Saying it doesn't make it so, blackSand!

Prove it.

You will not even try!

Hopefully I helped you understand your faith better.

You're a fool!

BTW, not you or anyone else answer my question which I asked too many times:
How king David was forgiven by God and became closed to God’s heart after what he did?

Because it isn't relevant.

If you think otherwise then explain why and if it turns out to be then we can discuss it. In the mean time no one is interested in your leading questions.

Can you tell me how many rams or chickens he sacrifice?
I understand your frustration toward me because what I am telling you you never heard before.
You’re not alone, relax.

You are such an arrogant jerk! It has nothing to do with the fact that you're telling me something I've never heard before. I've only been doing this for almost 25 years! You think that you're the first heretic that has shown up here? Good grief!

Look, you have to keep in mind that this is an internet forum where the discussion is in writing and that it doesn't vanish like a fart in the wind. The whole entire exchange is all still right here for the entire English speaking world to read. My frustration with you is that you aren't interested in debating your beliefs. You think we should accept what you're saying on the basis of the fact that you showed up here and said it. You aren't interested in any depth of discussion. You aren't interested in putting in the time it takes to establish your claims. You can't even be bothered to use proper grammar!

You're frustrating not primarily because you're a heretic but because you are a waste of everyone's time!

Now, you started this particular post of your off on the right foot but you were too lazy to finish it. Claims are easy to make, proving them requires work and brain power. Two things you are obviously quite short on but a start is a start and so if you want to give a shot at proving the two claims that you've made when you said, "Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering and they both (guilt and trespass offering) for unintentional sins only." then I'm willing to read it.

Be warned, I'm not the ignorant moron you take me for!

Clete

 

[Hoping]

>>>yes according to the law.
Guilt and trespassing offering designed only for unintentional sins.

How can you have guilt for something you didn't know was wrong?

>>>David admitted his wrong doing and repent and this was good enough for God to forgive him.
No sacrifices required.

Except for David's son and kingdom.

God loves the sinner when he/she repent more than the ones who never sin.
We been told I am a sinner, you’re a sinner we all sinners but no one told us repentance door is open and God waiting for us to forgive us.
God is a loving, merciful God.
In his Psalms 51 in beautiful way king David repent and acknowledge his sin and God accept it.
God is awesome.

Thank God we don't have to be sinners anymore...eh?

 

[Clete]

How can you have guilt for something you didn't know was wrong?

Because there is a difference between legal guilt and moral guilt.

Read Leviticus chapter 4.

 

[blackSand]

Saying it doesn't make it so, blackSand!

Prove it.

You will not even try!

You're a fool!


Because it isn't relevant.

If you think otherwise then explain why and if it turns out to be then we can discuss it. In the mean time no one is interested in your leading questions.


You are such an arrogant jerk! It has nothing to do with the fact that you're telling me something I've never heard before. I've only been doing this for almost 25 years! You think that you're the first heretic that has shown up here? Good grief!

Look, you have to keep in mind that this is an internet forum where the discussion is in writing and that it doesn't vanish like a fart in the wind. The whole entire exchange is all still right here for the entire English speaking world to read. My frustration with you is that you aren't interested in debating your beliefs. You think we should accept what you're saying on the basis of the fact that you showed up here and said it. You aren't interested in any depth of discussion. You aren't interested in putting in the time it takes to establish your claims. You can't even be bothered to use proper grammar!

You're frustrating not primarily because you're a heretic but because you are a waste of everyone's time!

Now, you started this particular post of your off on the right foot but you were too lazy to finish it. Claims are easy to make, proving them requires work and brain power. Two things you are obviously quite short on but a start is a start and so if you want to give a shot at proving the two claims that you've made when you said, "Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering and they both (guilt and trespass offering) for unintentional sins only." then I'm willing to read it.

Be warned, I'm not the ignorant moron you take me for!

Clete

Numbers 15:29-30
27 u“If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. 28 vAnd the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. 29 wYou shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 xBut the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

>>>Hopefully will help you understand sacrifices were only for unintentional sins.
Let me ask you:
Is there any sacrifices for killers intentionally?
Or, who disobey his parents intentionally?
Or who break the sabbath intentionally?

 

[Clete]

Numbers 15:29-30
27 u“If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. 28 vAnd the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. 29 wYou shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 xBut the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

>>>Hopefully will help you understand sacrifices were only for unintentional sins.
Let me ask you:
Is there any sacrifices for killers intentionally?
Or, who disobey his parents intentionally?
Or who break the sabbath intentionally?

I will not read or respond to anything you have to say until you prove your claims. In fact, if you do not directly and substantively establish your claims in your very next post on this thread, I will simply put you on ignore and not waste any more time with you.

PROVE biblically that, "Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering{s} and they both (guilt and trespass offering{s}) {are} for unintentional sins only." or we are done.

I can tell you now that proof texting isn't going to cut it.

That's your option, choose freely.

Clete

 

[blackSand]

I will not read or respond to anything you have to say until you prove your claims. In fact, if you do not directly and substantively establish your claims in your very next post on this thread, I will simply put you on ignore and not waste any more time with you.

>>> I hate to see you putting me on ignore.
I enjoy your idea although I hate cursing anyone no matter how ignorant like me.

PROVE biblically that, "Guilt offering and trespass offering are not sin offering{s} and they both (guilt and trespass offering{s}) {are} for unintentional sins only." or we are done.

I can tell you now that proof texting isn't going to cut it.

That's your option, choose freely

>>>Why you think Numbers 19:29-30 are not biblical verses.

It seem to me It’s very simple to understand.
If someone sins unintentional then he must offer a sacrifice.
And if his sin intentional there is a punishment.
Please be patient with me and tell me where I am wrong or missing?
Remember Jesus was sent only to the sinners not to the righteous.
Have wonderful day.

 

[Hoping]

Because there is a difference between legal guilt and moral guilt.

Read Leviticus chapter 4.

Thank God we don't live under the Law anymore...eh?

 

[blackSand]

Thank God we don't live under the Law anymore...eh?

>>>why???
Psalm 19: 9 God’s laws are pure, eternal, just.[a] 10 They are more desirable than gold. They are sweeter than honey dripping from a honeycomb. 11 For they warn us away from harm and give success to those who obey them.

 

[Clete]

>>> I hate to see you putting me on ignore.
I enjoy your idea although I hate cursing anyone no matter how ignorant like me.


It seem to me It’s very simple to understand.
If someone sins unintentional then he must offer a sacrifice.
And if his sin intentional there is a punishment.
Please be patient with me and tell me where I am wrong or missing?
Remember Jesus was sent only to the sinners not to the righteous.
Have wonderful day.

Simply repeating your position does exactly nothing to establish it as true.

I have already pointed out multiple passages that demonstrate that you are wrong. You respond to those by making the same claim again!

Prove it, blackSand!

Spend more than two minutes writing a post and make the argument or admit that you cannot and that what you are really doing here is nothing more than parroting something that some idiot on YouTube taught you.

Clete