The Natural Man and the Gospel

[OZOS]

Then we have nothing to discuss, you will continue in the dark about these matters.

YOU have nothing to discuss, because you are a false teacher, who is committed to a false gospel, that saves no one. The only words you will ever hear from the Lord Jesus Christ are "I never knew you".

 

[marke]

Universal Atonement Doctrine Dishonors God
John Gill​

The first set of arguments shall be taken from hence, that universal redemption reflects highly on the perfections of God; and what is contrary to the divine perfections, cannot be true; for God cannot deny himself, nor do anything contrary to his nature and attributes.
1. The universal scheme greatly reflects on the love of God to men: it may, at first sights, seem to magnify it, since it extends it to all; but it will not appear so; it lessens it, and reduces it to nothing. The scriptures highly commend the love of God, as displayed in the death of his Son, and in redemption by him; but what kind of love must that be, which does not secure the salvation of any by it? It is not that love which God bears to his own people, which is special and distinguishing; when, according to the universal scheme, God loved Peter no more than he did Judas; nor is it that love of God, which is immutable, invariable, and unalterable; since, according to this scheme, God loves men with so intense a love, at one time, as to give his Son to die for them, and wills that they all should be saved; and afterwards this love is turned into wrath and fury; and he is determined to punish them with everlasting destruction. What sort of love must this be in God, not to spare his Son, but deliver him up to death for all the individuals of mankind, for their redemption; and yet, to multitudes of them, does not send then so much as the gospel, to acquaint them with the blessings of redemption to them; nor give them faith to lay hold upon it for themselves? Such
love as this is unworthy of God, and of no service to the creature.
2. The universal scheme, highly reflects on the wisdom of God: it is certain, God is "wonderful in counsel" in contriving the scheme of redemption; and is "excellent in working", in the execution of it; he the wise God, and our Saviour; and is wise as such. But where is his wisdom in forming a scheme, in which he fails of his end? There must be some deficiency in it; a want of wisdom, to concert a scheme, which is not, or cannot be carried into execution, at least as to some considerable part of it. Should it be said, that the failure is owing to some men's not performing the conditions of their redemption required of them; it may be observed, either God did know, or did not know, this ascribes want of knowledge to him; which surely ought not to be ascribed to him that knows all things: if he did know they would not perform them, where is his wisdom, to provide the blessing of redemption, which he knew beforehand, would be of no service to them? Let not such a charge of folly, be brought against infinite Wisdom.
3. The universal scheme, highly reflects on the justice of God: God is righteous in all his ways and works; and so in this of redemption by Christ; and indeed, one principal end of it is, "To declare the righteousness of God, that he might be just," (or appears to be just) "... and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:26) But if Christ died for the sins of all men, and the punishment of their sins is inflicted on him, and bore by him, and yet multitudes of them are everlastingly punished for them, where is the justice of God? It is reckoned unjust with men, to punish twice for the same act of offense: if one man pays another man's debts, would it be just with the creditor to exact, require, and receive payment again at the hands of the debtor? If Christ has paid the debts of all men, can it be just with God to arrest such persons, and cast them into the prison of hell, till they have paid the uttermost farthing? Far be it from the Judge of all the earth to do so, who will do right?
4. The universal scheme, reflects on the power of God; as if he was not able to carry his designs into execution; whereas, "The Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save"; but, according to this scheme, it seems as if it was; for if Christ has redeemed all men, and all men are not saved, it must be either from want of will in God to save them, or from want of power: not from want of will; for, according to this scheme, it is the will of God that every individual man should be saved; it must be therefore for want of power; and so he is not omnipotent. Should it be said, that some men not being saved, is owing to evil dispositions in them, obstructing the kind influences and intentions of God towards them; to the perverseness of their wills, and the strength of their unbelief. But, what is man mightier than his Maker? Are the kind influences of God, and his gracious intentions, to be obstructed by the corrupt dispositions of men? Is not He able to work in them, both to will and to do, of His good pleasure? Cannot he remove the perverseness of their wills, and the hardness of their hearts? Cannot he, by his power, take away their unbelief, and work faith in them, to believe in a living Redeemer? Far be it to think otherwise of him, with whom nothing is too hard, nor anything impossible.
5. The universal scheme reflects on the immutability of God, of his love, and of his counsel; God, in the scripture, says "I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed", (Malachi 3:6). But, according to this scheme, it should be, rather, I am the Lord, I change; and therefore the sons of men, or at least some of them, are consumed, are lost and perish, though redeemed by Christ; for the love of God, as has been observed, is changeable with respect into them: one while he loves them, so that he wills their salvation; at another time his love is changed into hatred, and he is resolved to stir up his wrath to the uttermost against them. He is said to be "in one mind, and who can turn him?" (Job 23:13) and yet, according to this scheme, he is sometimes in one mind, and sometimes in another; sometimes his mind is to save them; and at another time his mind is to damn them. But let not this be said of him, "with whom there is no variableness, nor shadow of turning." (James 1:17)
6. The universal scheme disappoints God of his chief end, and robs him of his glory. The ultimate end of God, in the redemption of men, as has been observed, is his own glory; the glory of his rich grace and mercy; and of his righteousness, truth, and faithfulness: but if men, any of them who are redeemed, are not saved, so far God loses his end, and is deprived of his glory; for should this be the case, where would be the glory of God the Father, in forming a scheme which does not succeed, at least with respect to multitudes? And where would be the glory of the Son of God, the Redeemer, in working out the redemption of men, and yet they not be saved by him? And where would be the glory of the Spirit of God, if the redemption wrought out, is not effectually applied by him? But, on the contrary, the "glory of God," Father, Son, and Spirit' "is great in the salvation" of all the re deemed ones, (Psalm 21:5).

Shall one man be condemned for the sins of another? No, that would be evil, like something democrat prosecutors and judges would do in America. God has clearly told us that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son.

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

So why are sinners condemned to hell if not for Adam's sin? Some may correctly say sinners are condemned for their own sins, which is also only true if exceptions are noted. For example, sinners are not condemned for sins of ignorance [Romans 5:13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

And so forth.

 

[OZOS]

Shall one man be condemned for the sins of another?

So why are sinners condemned to hell if not for Adam's sin?

Which position are you taking here?

First you claim that it's "evil" for one man to be condemned for another man's sin, and then you claim that sinners are condemned because of Adam's sin.

 

[marke]

Which position are you taking here?

First you claim that it's "evil" for one man to be condemned for another man's sin, and then you claim that sinners are condemned because of Adam's sin.

Sinners are not condemned for Adam's sin. The fact that I asked how sinners could be condemned for Adan's sin should not be misinterpreted to mean I am saying sinners can be condemned for Adam's sin.

 

[marke]

Which position are you taking here?

First you claim that it's "evil" for one man to be condemned for another man's sin, and then you claim that sinners are condemned because of Adam's sin.

What do you think? Would God be just to condemn a sinner for another man's sin?

 

[OZOS]

What do you think? Would God be just to condemn a sinner for another man's sin?

I'll let God speak for me.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Which is more unjust, that God condemns because of one man's disobedience or that God declares righteous because of one Man's obedience?

The reason you are so double-minded is because you have no clue what salvation is.

 

[OZOS]

Sinners are not condemned for Adam's sin.

God's word disagrees with you. I'll believe God, and not you.

"Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation"

 

[marke]

I'll let God speak for me.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Which is more unjust, that God condemns because of one man's disobedience or that God declares righteous because of one Man's obedience?

The reason you are so double-minded is because you have no clue what salvation is.

We know sinners are born sinners, but that does not prove babies, for example, who are born sinners because of Adam, are condemned because of Adam's sin.

 

[beloved57]

Shall one man be condemned for the sins of another? No, that would be evil, like something democrat prosecutors and judges would do in America. God has clearly told us that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father and neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son.

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

So why are sinners condemned to hell if not for Adam's sin? Some may correctly say sinners are condemned for their own sins, which is also only true if exceptions are noted. For example, sinners are not condemned for sins of ignorance [Romans 5:13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

And so forth.

Yes when that Man is the sinless Christ Jesus. He was condemned to death for the sins of many.

 

[OZOS]

We know sinners are born sinners, but that does not prove babies, for example, who are born sinners because of Adam, are condemned because of Adam's sin.

How God chooses to deal with those who do not know their left hand from their right, is outside of your authority. God is just. Jonah 4:11

 

[marke]

Yes when that Man is the sinless Christ Jesus. He was condemned to death for the sins of many.

I agree. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the whole world in order that sinners who would repent of sins and come to Him for forgiveness could be saved without violating universal laws of justice.

 

[marke]

How God chooses to deal with those who do not know their left hand from their right, is outside of your authority. God is just. Jonah 4:11

God does not hide the fact that He is just and does not condemn sinners to hell for the sins of Adam.

Ezekiel 18:20​

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

 

[OZOS]

Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the whole world in order that sinners who would repent of sins and come to Him for forgiveness could be saved without violating universal laws of justice.

Blasphemy. You keep repeating this same lie over and over again, which is proof that you have never believed the gospel.

 

[OZOS]

God does not hide the fact that He is just and does not condemn sinners to hell for the sins of Adam.

Ezekiel 18:20​

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

God's word is against you, because you are a false teacher, with a false gospel.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
""Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation"

Ezekiel 18:20 is dealing with physical death for behavior in regards to God's Law, not spiritual death that all men inherited from Adam. The son will not be responsible if his father is an idolater or the father if the son is an idolater. Read the whole book.

 

[marke]

Blasphemy. You keep repeating this same lie over and over again, which is proof that you have never believed the gospel.

Let's assume you might be right. Tell me why you think what I said is blasphemy. Does God not save sinners who repent of their sins and come to Jesus for forgiveness? How can that not be true?

 

[marke]

God's word is against you, because you are a false teacher, with a false gospel.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
""Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation"

Ezekiel 18:20 is dealing with physical death for behavior in regards to God's Law, not spiritual death that all men inherited from Adam. The son will not be responsible if his father is an idolater or the father if the son is an idolater. Read the whole book.

We agree that all humans born into the world are sinners because of Adam. I agree that the end of sins caused by a sin nature is death in hell. But I do not agree with the ideas that babies are condemned to hell for Adam's sin or that sinners are condemned to hell in ignorance just because they were born in sin. Sinners are condemned to hell for rejecting the light clearly revealed unto them by the Holy Ghost which enlightens every man born into the world.

John 3:19​

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

Romans 1:17-20
King James Version
​

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[OZOS]

Let's assume you might be right. Tell me why you think what I said is blasphemy. Does God not save sinners who repent of their sins and come to Jesus for forgiveness? How can that not be true?

No, God saves those who believe the Gospel. No one "repents of their sins" to be saved. Forgiveness is in Christ. To receive forgiveness you must be in Him, and we are place into Him, when we believe the Gospel.

Salvation is receiving His life. It is the Spirit that gives life. When anyone believes the Gospel, they receive His life, and in His life we receive everything that God has promised - forgiveness, righteousness, holiness, etc. Those who believe the Gospel are a new creation, one spirit with Him, and have been made complete and perfected for all time.

 

[OZOS]

I do not agree with the ideas that babies are condemned to hell for Adam's sin or that sinners are condemned to hell in ignorance just because they were born in sin.

Already answered.

 

[marke]

No, God saves those who believe the Gospel. No one "repents of their sins" to be saved. Forgiveness is in Christ. To receive forgiveness you must be in Him, and we are place into Him, when we believe the Gospel.

Salvation is receiving His life. It is the Spirit that gives life. When anyone believes the Gospel, they receive His life, and in His life we receive everything that God has promised - forgiveness, righteousness, holiness, etc. Those who believe the Gospel are a new creation, one spirit with Him, and have been made complete and perfected for all time.

OK. Let's not say sinners must repent of sins to be saved, but let's also agree that God will still save sinners who come to Him humbly seeking forgiveness and yet still repent of their sins because that is what they want to do.

 

[marke]

Already answered.

Oh. Does that mean you have no ability to repeat yourself or further engage once you have presented your best argument and retreated?