Exhuastive Divine Foreknowledge is False

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musterion

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God can be genuinely angry at sin, and can genuinely rejoice when a sinner is saved. Those are the emotional responses of a being Who doesn't lie. I keep coming back to this and wondering how it makes sense if He exhaustively foreknows all that happens...if He can't be suprised, why an emotional response?
 

clefty

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God can be genuinely angry at sin, and can genuinely rejoice when a sinner is saved. Those are the emotional responses of a being Who doesn't lie. I keep coming back to this and wondering how it makes sense if He exhaustively foreknows all that happens...if He can't be suprised, why an emotional response?

if there is no risk? what sacrifice is it? If Abraham KNEW his son was to be returned to life...how is that a test?

But as with Israel He took them around the LONG way just in case they encountered war too soon and return to Egypt Ex 13:17...so too He knows He can only test each of us so far...”lead us not into PROVING, experiencing evil,discipline, adversity...but deliver us”

Moses restrained His desire to destroy Israel and start over with him...by reminding Him the nations are watching...Ex 32;10 Deut 9:27-28

After all the Universe had already seen Him curse all He created and kill an innocent to cover the guilty...was Lucifer correct in his adversarial claim that He was NOT worthy of free will worship but a jealous Tyrant that bribed for worship or killed off dissent...or even tortured forever?

How better to prove He was worthy then to sacrifice His own for wages demanded...and let man CHOOSE Him and testify His worthiness “though He slay me”

we are like character witnesses to a Dr.s trial to vindicate his care....”He did all he could”

We having become like ONE OF US...knowing both good and evil...we through His SACRIFICE are best suited to be character witnesses at His trial to testify that indeed this IMMORTAL ONE the Healer did ALL He could to save that which was lost...

HalleluYah...
 

Clete

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God can be genuinely angry at sin, and can genuinely rejoice when a sinner is saved. Those are the emotional responses of a being Who doesn't lie. I keep coming back to this and wondering how it makes sense if He exhaustively foreknows all that happens...if He can't be surprised, why an emotional response?

That is a brilliant point!

The bible also talks about God laughing at the wicked. Something is only funny when there is something surprising about it. It is the surprise that makes it funny and that makes you laugh. God is literally surprised at how the foolish people of the world think that they're going to get away with their evil and overcome their Creator.
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Psalm 2:1-12 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, ...


Psalm 37:13 But the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he sees that his day is coming.


Psalm 59:8 But you, O Lord, laugh at them; you hold all the nations in derision.


Proverbs 1:26-28 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me.​

The Calvinist will tell you that God is impassible, meaning that He has no passions, no emotions, that His mental state of mind is immutable but the bible says just the exact opposite. Everyone is familiar with what the bible says about God's anger and wrath but His love and rejoicing is just as powerful. God will be so happy with those He has saved that He will sing out loud over them.
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Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.​

I just cannot wait to here God's singing voice! WOW!!!

Clete
 

musterion

Well-known member
The Calvinist will tell you that God is impassible, meaning that He has no passions, no emotions, that His mental state of mind is immutable

Or they will say that it's mere figurative language, not literally true: "No, dummy, God is spirit so He has no physical body, therefore no mouth. So how can He laugh without a mouth, huh? HUH?"

And if He has no passions but exists in a constant state of infinite chill, one wonders what the Calvinist also does with John 3:16 besides limit it to "the world of the elect."

"For God so LOVED the world..."

But did He, if He's really a cosmic Vulcan?
 

Clete

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Or they will say that it's mere figurative language, not literally true: "No, dummy, God is spirit so He has no physical body, therefore no mouth. So how can He laugh without a mouth, huh? HUH?"

And if He has no passions but exists in a constant state of infinite chill, one wonders what the Calvinist also does with John 3:16 besides limit it to "the world of the elect."

"For God so LOVED the world..."

But did He, if He's really a cosmic Vulcan?

Cosmic Vulcan! :chuckle:

It really is everything about who God is that makes Him relatable to us that Calvinists (Augustinians) deny God has. All the things that make up a person's personality, especially a good personality that someone might like and enjoy spending time with, are the things that they strip from Him. All of the things that the bible makes so plainly clear that He finds most important in a believer are the things the Calvinist claim are outside of God's experience while in the next breath telling us that He is omniscient.

I know that they must see the contradiction because it has been pointed out to them so many times but they just do not care. They are married to their Aristotelian doctrine and couldn't care less whether the bible agrees with it or not.

Clete
 

Clete

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Just like their 1st cousins of Rome.

Indeed!
Calvinism, in all its flavors, is little more than reformed Augustinianism. Luther, who was an Augustinian monk and others during the reformation period, did a rather respectable job of removing the corruption of Rome from Christian doctrine but left the corruption of Greece fully intact and even strengthened.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the modern Open Theism movement is just the next step down the same road that Luther put the whole Christian world on. That road being, as John Sanders puts it, "an attempt to provide a more biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship." It is an attempt to remove all extra-biblical philosophical influences in order to produce a doctrine that is not only rationally coherent but purely biblical.

One of my greatest frustrations in my debates with Calvinists over the years has been the seemingly impossible task of getting them to see that there is nothing in the bible that supports their distinctive doctrines and that where they think otherwise it is because they are reading their doctrine into the text. The passage where God says that He declares the end from the beginning is perhaps the most obvious example. They read that and see God saying that He exhaustively knows the future but that isn't at all what the text actually says when you just read the words on the page. And it is exactly that, just reading the words on the page, that they seem incapable of doing. They have the worst case of paradigm blindness that I think it possible to have. Which is not an excuse, by the way! The truth is there to see if they choose to see it.

Clete
 

musterion

Well-known member
Side note. Calvinists say there is nothing impossible for God, correct? He is omnipotent, so if something is not logically or morally impossible, He could do it. So since they also say free will doesn't exist due to predestination, then why did God not override the sin, say, of with the pagan nations whom He had Israel wipe off the face of the Earth? Or of Sodom? Or all the lost? Why not just make them stop being pagans and worship Him? If free will doesn't exist, then there is never a human will for Him to violate, so nothing could be morally objectionable about it.

Why would a loving God resort to having them brutally exterminated or vast into the Lake instead?
 

Clete

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Side note. Calvinists say there is nothing impossible for God, correct? He is omnipotent, so if something is not logically or morally impossible, He could do it. So since they also say free will doesn't exist due to predestination, then why did God not override the sin, say, of with the pagan nations whom He had Israel wipe off the face of the Earth? Or of Sodom? Or all the lost? Why not just make them stop being pagans and worship Him? If free will doesn't exist, then there is never a human will for Him to violate, so nothing could be morally objectionable about it.

Why would a loving God resort to having them brutally exterminated or vast into the Lake instead?

To bring Himself glory, of course! :doh:
 

Truth7t7

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Clete, if you are right that God doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge then please explain the following passage:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

God knew which "individuals" would believe and it is "individuals" who are baptized into "Christ Jesus." He knew which individuals would believe "before the world began."

That certainly sounds like exhaustive foreknowledge to me.
Looks like exhaustive foreknowledge to me also Jerry, God is the Alpha & Omega!

Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Y'alls Calvin is showing.

Predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ =/= predestined to be saved.

God predestinated no one to believe the gospel of grace. If He did, then there's no grace at all for those He didn't predestine, and the Bible is a book of lies for saying He loves them. Because your "God" doesn't love them. So shut your blasphemous mouths, hereticks. The Lake awaits you lest you repent.
 

Clete

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Looks like exhaustive foreknowledge to me also Jerry, God is the Alpha & Omega!

Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
As if on queue!
Have you been reading the last few posts? Calvinist are just blind! I'll never understand it.



T7t7,

If the bible teaches exhaustive foreknowledge then the bible is false.

Is it your point to concede that the opening post falsifies the bible?

If not then explain how it fails to do so if what these passages "look like to you" is what they're actually saying?

Or is it beyond your ability to engage the debate as it comes to you?

We can dissect your out of context proof-texting strategy AFTER you've engaged the debate that this thread was intended to bring. The point being that the passages you think teach exhaustive foreknowledge do not teach anything of the sort and, if they did, it would be proof that the bible is false. So let's clear that hurdle before we get into the weeds dealing with individual texts that people (Calvinists in particular) have a tendency to read their doctrine into.

Clete
 

Truth7t7

New member
As if on queue!
Have you been reading the last few posts? Calvinist are just blind! I'll never understand it.



T7t7,

If the bible teaches exhaustive foreknowledge then the bible is false.

Is it your point to concede that the opening post falsifies the bible?

If not then explain how it fails to do so if what these passages "look like to you" is what they're actually saying?

Or is it beyond your ability to engage the debate as it comes to you?

We can dissect your out of context proof-texting strategy AFTER you've engaged the debate that this thread was intended to bring. The point being that the passages you think teach exhaustive foreknowledge do not teach anything of the sort and, if they did, it would be proof that the bible is false. So let's clear that hurdle before we get into the weeds dealing with individual texts that people (Calvinists in particular) have a tendency to read their doctrine into.

Clete
The text is self explanatory, Clete vast wisdom and knowledge isn't needed for interpretation :up:

​​​​​Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Clete has a fool proof system of winning every argument. He simply puts those who disagree with his ideas on "Ignore" and then precedes as if he did not see the verses which contradict his ideas.

For instance, according to Clete the following verse is not speaking of God choosing " individuals" in the Body od Christ:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9; KJV).​

However, God knew which "individuals" would believe and it is "individuals" who are baptized into "Christ Jesus." He knew which individuals would believe "before the world began."

That completely destroys Clete's argument because it proves that God is not bound by time so He exists outside time.

But since he has me on " Ignore" he just plays like he has an answer to these facts. For him ignorance is bliss!
 

musterion

Well-known member
The text is self explanatory, Clete vast wisdom and knowledge isn't needed for interpretation :up:

​​​​​Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul is referring to the ultimate glorification of all who are in Christ, but not by virtue of their being personally foreknown and elected by God (they weren't). It is glory only by virtue of becoming members of Christ through the Gospel.

Proof: v. 30 says "glorified."

No believer still in this world is occupying his or her promised glorified body. Not one. They are still shackled to this corrupting flesh, this body of death and sin. So the passage can't mean what you say.

But every believer IS even now positionally glorified because they're members of Christ, who is in glory and IS glorified. That's what Paul means.

So it is those members who are thus predestined...but only because they BECOME predestined to glory once they're in Christ, not because God predestined them to BE in Christ.
 

Clete

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The text is self explanatory, Clete vast wisdom and knowledge isn't needed for interpretation :up:

​​​​​Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Boring crap!

Do you know how many MILLIONS of times I've had the same tired discussion about the same boring proof texting nonsense?!

Why is it so impossible to get anyone to explore the issue from a different angle? Why must it always instantly revert back to the same exact discussion that we've all seen, read and heard for decades? Is this really all you've got? Is this really all that you're capable of?

Look, here's the bottom line.

I WILL NOT DEBATE ANYTHING WITH ANY ONE ON THIS THREAD OTHER THAN THE ARGUMENT MADE IN THE OPENING POST!!!

If you want to discuss this other boring crap then go try to find someone who hasn't already done it ten thousand time before.

Clete
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I WILL NOT DEBATE ANYTHING WITH ANY ONE ON THIS THREAD OTHER THAN THE ARGUMENT MADE IN THE OPENING POST!!!

Who in the world can understand the boring crap in your opening post?

Why don't you quote Scripture in order to advance your argument, Clete?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry,

Is it your intention to argue that the bible is false?

If not, then is your intention to ignore the argument or what?

Your argument is based on a false premise, the idea that God has foreknowledge.

If God exists in "time" then His foreknowledge must be unchanging. That knowledge is settled and whatever takes place in history must come into being exactly as God foreknew it would happen. That is the "settled view of history."

However, God exists outside of time then with Him there is no "before" or "after." William Ames, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after."​

John Wesley, who along with his brother Charles founded the Methodist movement, wrote the following about this subject:

"The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not.' Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, 'Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself' Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence."​

The LORD exists in "one eternal now," meaning that with Him there is neither past nor future so when the Scriptures refer to His "foreknowledge" what is said is not to be taken in a "literal" manner. Instead, what is being employed is the "figurative" language spoken of here:

"Anthropopatheia ; or, Condescension...Ascribing to God what belongs to human and rational beings, irrational creatures, or inanimate things."​
 

Truth7t7

New member
Paul is referring to the ultimate glorification of all who are in Christ, but not by virtue of their being personally foreknown and elected by God (they weren't). It is glory only by virtue of becoming members of Christ through the Gospel.

Proof: v. 30 says "glorified."

No believer still in this world is occupying his or her promised glorified body. Not one. They are still shackled to this corrupting flesh, this body of death and sin. So the passage can't mean what you say.

But every believer IS even now positionally glorified because they're members of Christ, who is in glory and IS glorified. That's what Paul means.

So it is those members who are thus predestined...but only because they BECOME predestined to glory once they're in Christ, not because God predestined them to BE in Christ.
I disagree, the Holy Spirit explained the process in steps to eternal Glory for the believer, Foreknowledge, Predestinated, Called, Justified, Glorified.

Foreknowledge, predestinate, called, justified, glorified.

Romans 8:29-30KJV

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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