Should Children Be Executed If They've...
- Thread starter Arthur Brain
- Start date
marhig
Well-known member
I believe that abortion is murder, but it's not up to me to judge, I leave that to God because only he knows the heart and why people do it. It's alright by the laws of the world but not by the law of God, And he will judge, because is a righteous judge.
As for governing authorities being worldly governments, since when are the governments of the world God's ministers? There are different types of governing bodies the Holy Spirit is also a governing body as the Holy Spirit governs those who belong to Christ.
The governments of the world are not God's ministers, they govern the world. Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit and he was part of God's governing authority as he had the power of the Spirit and he judged by the word of God.
But I believe that we are to obey the laws of the natural government too, unless it contradicts God's laws. God says that gay acts are wrong, but the governments of the world say it's right and permit gay marriage, I would then listen to God and not to man.
Seeing as you believe that the government of the world are God's ministers, would you obey their laws if you knew it was wrong before God? What about gay marriage? Do you agree with things like this, this is lawful by man, but it's an abomination in the site of God! What would you do? Go along with it because the world says it's right? Or not because God says it's wrong? That goes for abortion too, do you believe it's alright to do this because you see those in the natural government are ministers of God? Because really the way you believe, you should obey, and agree with all men's laws if you believe that they are the ministers of God, not just the ones that suit you!
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
You just did judge! You judged (rightly so) that abortion is murder, thereby condemning those who take the lives of unborn children.
Your position is untenable.
And God tells man to judge. Paul does too!
You don't need to know what's in a criminal's heart or why he committed a crime to know that he was wrong to commit it. Jesus doesn't say "don't judge because you don't know what a man thinks in his heart." He says "JUDGE WITH RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT!"
What is?
Are you talking about judging? Because the Bible, which is God's word, TELLS US TO JUDGE.
And he will also commit judgment into the hands of his followers come judgment day.
Since Noah.
Paul isn't talking about the Holy Spirit in Romans 13.
According to Paul they are. Haven't you read Romans 13?
Duh... AS GOD'S MINISTERS!
A minister isn't just a church title...
It's also a governmental title.
Ok, And? Romans 13 is talking about governments.
That's what the Bible says...
Just call it homosexuality, because everything to do with it is wrong.
DUH!
Of course not! However, that doesn't preclude them from being God's ministers.
My answers above are sufficient.
Then you really don't understand my position.
Marhig, what is the purpose of any law? To condemn, yes?
If a government makes a law, one that doesn't violate God's law, (say, that all cars must drive on the right side of the road), does God expect the people under that law to obey it? Of course He does. If someone violates that law, He expects the government to punish the one who violated the law. In that way, the government is God's minister, because it applies the law to those who are under it.
However, if the government passes a law that does violate God's law, He does not expect that the citizens obey that law. In fact, He expects that the citizens commit civil disobedience in protest of such a law, because that law is unjust, and no one has to tolerate an unjust law. Yet, the government is still God's minister, even when it is wicked.
marhig
Well-known member
Really? So wicked leaders are God's ministers? I don't think so!You just did judge! You judged (rightly so) that abortion is murder, thereby condemning those who take the lives of unborn children.
Your position is untenable.
And God tells man to judge. Paul does too!
You don't need to know what's in a criminal's heart or why he committed a crime to know that he was wrong to commit it. Jesus doesn't say "don't judge because you don't know what a man thinks in his heart." He says "JUDGE WITH RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT!"
What is?
Are you talking about judging? Because the Bible, which is God's word, TELLS US TO JUDGE.
And he will also commit judgment into the hands of his followers come judgment day.
Since Noah.
Paul isn't talking about the Holy Spirit in Romans 13.
According to Paul they are. Haven't you read Romans 13?
Duh... AS GOD'S MINISTERS!
A minister isn't just a church title...
It's also a governmental title.
Ok, And? Romans 13 is talking about governments.
That's what the Bible says...
Just call it homosexuality, because everything to do with it is wrong.
DUH!
Of course not! However, that doesn't preclude them from being God's ministers.
My answers above are sufficient.
Then you really don't understand my position.
Marhig, what is the purpose of any law? To condemn, yes?
If a government makes a law, one that doesn't violate God's law, (say, that all cars must drive on the right side of the road), does God expect the people under that law to obey it? Of course He does. If someone violates that law, He expects the government to punish the one who violated the law. In that way, the government is God's minister, because it applies the law to those who are under it.
However, if the government passes a law that does violate God's law, He does not expect that the citizens obey that law. In fact, He expects that the citizens commit civil disobedience in protest of such a law, because that law is unjust, and no one has to tolerate an unjust law. Yet, the government is still God's minister, even when it is wicked.
And no, the governments of this world expect us to obey their laws even if they contradict God's laws, and we can be fined or even put in jail if we don't obey them. But we should listen to God not man and obey God first and foremost. For instance, a couple here in the UK refused to let a gay couple stay in their hotel because they believe that to commit a homosexual act is wrong before God so they refused to let this happen in their hotel, and they were hauled in front of the law courts and fined and told that they are not to discriminate anymore. What should they do, obey the UK courts, seeing as they are God's ministers (according to you)? Or carry on obeying God, who tells us that to commit gay acts are wrong?
God's true ministers obey the living God!
Also, the only righteous judge is the living God, so the only righteous way that God's people judge is by his word!
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Who were the governing authorities when Paul wrote Romans 13?
Yes. Even wicked leaders are God's ministers, because He established their authority to execute justice on the wicked.
Too bad.
Marhig, you keep saying things that we agree upon. When are you going to put forth your argument that counters mine instead of agrees with it?
I think that they should listen to what Peter said...
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. - Acts 5:29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts5:29&version=NKJV
AND to what Paul said:
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. - Romans 13:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1&version=NKJV
We obey the earthly authorities because they are God's ministers, and He appointed governments to rule over people. And we obey God rather than men when those authorities violate God's laws.
https://carm.org/questions/skeptics-ask/should-we-obey-governments-are-bad
Do all true Christians obey God all the time? If not, then your position is invalid, because you're demanding a standard of righteousness for governments that is higher than God's.
What does this have to do with anything?
marhig
Well-known member
Sorry but I don't agree, the leaders of this world are not God's ministers. God's true ministers bare witness to the truth and preach God's word and partake in the sufferings of Christ. The ministers of the world take care of the world, the ministers of God take care of the things of God.
These are true ministers of God, and Paul was one of them, and this is what they sometimes go through to bare witness to the truth.
2 Corinthians 6
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: But in all things approving ourselves as the MINISTERS OF GOD, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
And these ministers of God have rule over those who belong to God and they rule by the word of God which given them by the power of the Holy Spirit, God's people judge by God's word.
Hebrews 13
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
I won't be posting any more regarding this, we don't agree with each other. So I'll leave it there and agree to disagree.
That's too bad, because Paul is pretty darn clear.
The Bible says otherwise.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Show me in scripture "God's true ministers", Marhig.
And that is not what the Bible says.
See Romans 13.
You call Paul a "true minister of God", yet you deny that he explicitly says that governmental authorities are God's ministers.
:think:
NO ONE has said that ONLY governmental authorities are God's ministers. So what's your point?
So do these "God's ministers" of yours have the authority to collect taxes and customs?
Ok, And?
So you're a coward who can't stand for what she believes in?
"Agreeing to disagree" is the cowards way out when someone knows their position is untenable, but they still want to hold onto their beliefs.
I stand firm in my beliefs, Marhig, because my understanding of the Bible COMES FROM the Bible. I never have to be ashamed of what it says.
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Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, it's a bump for a thread a coupla years old but I'm curious. Are there still any people here who think children as young as six should be executed? To the point of their executioner stabbing them to death?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Still holds
eider
Well-known member
I'm glad that you bumped this thread........ interesting!
Jesus would have been extremely angry at the idea of executing anybody who could not reason clearly. That includes quite a list of folks:-
Beyond reason of the mind:-
The very young
The very old........ e.g. in senility.
Mentally disabled.
Low Intelligence.
Actions in terror.
Self defence.
........... and probably more......
On the side.......... when a Judge sentences and an executioner kills an innocent person, do they both die?
If so......... very few judges or executioners would last long, and very few folks would apply for the positions.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Isn't that adorable? The non-Christian pretending to speak for Christ :dizzy:
:mock: satan
I can only speak for myself when I say ... NO. We have all sorts of activities which children are banned from and I see the DP as a punishment aligned with ADULTS who commit actions such as rape, murder, mutilation, etc.
As far as how to deal with children who commit murder, it’s more complex due to the aggressor’s age. Also, intentionally killing children would be in conflict with my anti-abortion advocacy.
So a child isn't capable of those things too?
The Bible is EXTREMELY clear:
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. - Genesis 9:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV
‘Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death. . . . And whoever kills an animal shall restore it; but whoever kills a man shall be put to death. - Leviticus 24:17,21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV
‘But if he strikes him with an iron implement, so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.And if he strikes him with a stone in the hand, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.Or if he strikes him with a wooden hand weapon, by which one could die, and he does die, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death.The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death.If he pushes him out of hatred or, while lying in wait, hurls something at him so that he dies,or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. - Numbers 35:16-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV
“But if anyone hates his neighbor, lies in wait for him, rises against him and strikes him mortally, so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities,then the elders of his city shall send and bring him from there, and deliver him over to the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you. - Deuteronomy 19:11-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3&version=NKJV
Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
Oh, and let's not forget that Jesus and Paul, as well as John in Revelation and Hebrews, support capital punishment:
Jesus:
He answered and said to them, [JESUS]“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[/JESUS] - Matthew 15:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV
[JESUS]For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men— the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”[/JESUS]He said to them, [JESUS]“All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[/JESUS] - Mark 7:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV
Paul:
For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” - Acts 25:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. - Romans 13:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV
See the rest at https://kgov.com/death-penalty.
7djengo7
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Not Yet Been Born, And Are Still Living Inside Their Mother's Womb, And Their Mother Does Not Want Them To Be Born Alive?
Nazi leftard hypocrites.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
No. JR, a child isn't capable of such because they aren't developed enough to understand their actions in the same way as an adult. That's why we have laws that acknowledge this.
You quote a lot of passages here and yet they're clearly in relation to adults, not children and certainly not six year olds. How is this not abundantly clear to you?
If you believe that "executing" children as young as six is somehow serving good then that is simply deranged. You also think it would be "just" to have a child as young as such stabbed to death if it befitted their "crime" as well, correct? What kind of mindset does it take to not consider that repugnant, repulsive and downright evil? To underline the point, what kind of person could actually bring themselves to "execute" a six year old child by stabbing it to death? A morally upstanding Christian or an outright psychopath devoid of morals and empathy?
You might want to think a bit more carefully before you throw these passages around because what you advocate is evil. If you think God would endorse the execution of six year old children then your only excuse for advocating such monstrosity is sheer ignorance because there's nothing Biblical to support it.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Oh goody, Captain Clueless and his dopey soundbite chimes in. For starters, nobody is arguing for abortion here and Rusha is as staunchly anti abortion as it gets. Furthermore, the Nazis thought nothing of strangling children to death to save bullets so who does that have more in common with, those appalled by the notion of killing children or those in favour of it, for whatever reason? Do you support "executing" six year old children?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Absolutely to the former and interesting point on the latter.
What kind of person would apply for the position of executioner? What kind of person could stick a knife into a six year old child until they died? I'm no longer shocked by anything I hear on here but I'm still repulsed.
7djengo7
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You pick up bad habits from watching The Barbarian on TOL, for he, too has this weird thing about him what makes him always feeling it necessary to refer to himself in the third person. Nevertheless, thanks for chiming in.
You didn't answer the question:
Should Children Be Executed If They've...Not Yet Been Born, And Are Still Living Inside Their Mother's Womb, And Their Mother Does Not Want Them To Be Born Alive?
I'm glad to hear it. I remember once hearing something along the lines that Nat Hentoff--the guy that wrote liner notes in a lot of the albums in my jazz collection--was something of a leftist, and yet, swam against the general leftist current by being anti baby-murder. I like stuff like that, yeah.
Without ever having really reflected on the question, all I can say, now, is that I'd have to admit that I could not support doing that at all. Let me put it this way: I, for one, will never be calling for that, or giving a hearty "Amen" to it, were it to occur.