Is White Privilege Real?

[glassjester]

So overall there was a significant issue, comparatively, with minority renters and home buyers.

Yes, that seems to be so.

And that is unjust. But practically speaking, it's a slim margin. At a 4% difference, what does that mean for an actual renter? I, and my black counterpart, would have to look at 25 different apartments before a got the privilege of seeing one extra. Realistically, does anyone even do that?


And is this type of discrepancy enough to account for the differences in SAT scores, fatherlessness, and crime rates? Or are there cultural differences that far outweigh the effects of any prejudice?

And that's just one strand of the privilege distinction.

Alright

 

[glassjester]

it does

what did you have in mind?

Although I'm a private citizen, plenty of my behaviors are regulated by the government. It's illegal for me to walk up to a guy on the street and punch him, for example.

 

[ok doser]

Yes, that seems to be so.

And that is unjust.

balance it against a homeowners right to enter into a business contract with whomever they choose to


or to refuse to enter into a business contract with whomever they choose to


is it just for the government to deny them that right?

 

[ok doser]

Although I'm a private citizen, plenty of my behaviors are regulated by the government. It's illegal for me to walk up to a guy on the street and punch him, for example.

that would be public behavior

if the same guy came on your property and refused to leave, I believe you have the right to force him to

 

[glassjester]

is it just for the government to deny them that right?

No, I do not believe so.

 

[fool]

No glass, what's unfair is discriminating against someone because their name doesn't evoke a sense of someone who looks like you, not that you didn't get to choose your name. What's sad is that bigots are so empowered that someone would have to consider their name to appease the impulse.

Yolanda might not stir the same sense of ease in some as Elizabeth, but that internal issue shouldn't be Yolanda's problem. It's the problem of the person with the irrational bias.

Are swimming pools racist?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ung-blacks-drown-at-far-higher-rates/9146213/

Black children ages 5 to 19 drown in swimming pools at a rate more than five times that of white children, the research found.

Now, allow me to swap that into your statement;

No glass, what's unfair is discriminating against someone because their swimming ability doesn't evoke a sense of someone who can swim, not that you didn't get to choose your swimming ability. What's sad is that swimming pools are so empowered that someone would have to consider their swimming ability to appease the impulse.

A non swimmer might not stir the same sense of ease in some as a swimmer, but that internal issue shouldn't be non swimmers problem. It's the problem of the swimming pool.

I agree that there is racism in our country I'm not arguing against that.
But if Elizabeth gets five times more interviews than Yolanda it seems that naming your kid Elizabeth is a no brainer.

I don't understand how it would be productive to point out that:

"It's the problem of the person with the irrational bias"

When it really is Yolanda's problem because she's the one that's going to drown.

 

[ok doser]

Are swimming pools racist?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ung-blacks-drown-at-far-higher-rates/9146213/

Now, allow me to swap that into your statement;



I agree that there is racism in our country I'm not arguing against that.
But if Elizabeth gets five times more interviews than Yolanda it seems that naming your kid Elizabeth is a no brainer.

I don't understand how it would be productive to point out that: When it really is Yolanda's problem because she's the one that's going to drown.

is it racist to associate black/ghetto names with ghetto behavior?

 

[fool]

is it racist to associate black/ghetto names with ghetto behavior?

Yes, even though swimming pools drown young black men five times more than whites you can't draw the conclusion that any particular black guy can't swim.

 

[ok doser]

Yes, even though swimming pools drown young black men five times more than whites you can't draw the conclusion that any particular black guy can't swim.

right, but if your time is limited, is it racist to not want to waste your time interviewing yolanda's for a lifeguard position?

 

[ok doser]

wouldn't that be like including white-haired grandmothers in the strip search lineup at the airport just so nobody will say you're discriminating against young male muslim arabs?

 

[Town Heretic]

Yes, that seems to be so.

And that is unjust. But practically speaking, it's a slim margin. At a 4% difference, what does that mean for an actual renter?

That's not the real difference. Look at the numbers I gave you from the 2013 (though yours were a bit different if you looked at page 16 of your report.

I, and my black counterpart, would have to look at 25 different apartments before a got the privilege of seeing one extra. Realistically, does anyone even do that?

That's not what my numbers were saying. Now if you had cancer and I told that because of the way the doctors weren't informing you that your chance of finding a cure were reduced by 17% that would set poorly with you and yours. Especially if it was because you were white.

And is this type of discrepancy enough to account for the differences in SAT scores

You know, it might well impact it. I'll get to why in a moment when we look at some data. I've seen Brookings Institute data that helps:

​

Two small studies have tried to compare genetically similar children raised in black and white families. Elsie Moore found that black children adopted by white parents had IQ scores 13.5 points higher than black children adopted by black parents. Lee Willerman and his colleagues compared children with a black mother and a white father to children with a white mother and a black father. The cleanest comparison is for mixed-race children who lived only with their mother. Mixed-race children who lived with a white mother scored 11 points higher than mixed-race children who lived with a black mother. Since the black-white IQ gap averaged about 15 points at the time these two studies were done, they imply that about four-fifths of that gap was traceable to family-related factors (including schools and neighborhoods).
​

What do we know about black neighborhoods? They tend to be poorer, which means they also tend to have a good bit of crime and criminal element. Is that a black thing? Nope. I'll address this in a moment with an OSU bit.

fatherlessness

It's an epidemic tied to a number of factors, not the least of which is poverty.

and crime rates?

Heavily tied to poverty.

Out of Ohio State University on one study:

POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES
​

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Violent crime rates have more to do with poverty levels in a neighborhood than with the race of local residents, new research has found. A study of Columbus neighborhoods found that violent crime rates in extremely disadvantaged white neighborhoods were very similar to rates in comparable Black neighborhoods.

The violent crime rate in highly disadvantaged Black areas was 22 per 1,000 residents, not much different from the 20 per 1,000 rate in similar white communities.

There are still many people who mistakenly believe there is something about Black neighborhoods that make them more violent and prone to crime, said Lauren Krivo, co-author of the study and associate professor of sociology at Ohio State University. Our research shows that neighborhoods with the most crime tend to be those with the highest rates of poverty and other types of disadvantage -- regardless of whether they are predominantly Black or white.
​

Now there is a difference worth noting here, that crime and arrests and/or convictions aren't the same animal. Blacks are much more likely to be arrested and charged, then when charged to be convicted and serve disproportionately longer sentences than their white counterparts who make it to the final adjudication.

Or are there cultural differences that far outweigh the effects of any prejudice?

I think that's the easy out a lot of people on the right want to see. It's not quite as bad as saying they're just born inferior, but it might as well be, because who constructs those cultural markers? Unless you're arguing that much of it has been imposed by the power structure (as with segregation) and I'm betting my bottom dollar almost no one on the right is going to go there, there's not a dimes worth of difference in that and suggesting an innate inferiority.

 

[Town Heretic]

Are swimming pools racist?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ung-blacks-drown-at-far-higher-rates/9146213/

Now, allow me to swap that into your statement;

It's a flawed attempt in parallel, fool. I mean it looked good, but it's not speaking to the point. The pool isn't considering and discriminating. And learning to swim makes you a swimmer. Changing your name to sound "white" won't change your genetics.

I agree that there is racism in our country I'm not arguing against that.

No, you're just about to argue for a pointless capitulation to the impulse. One that won't necessarily accomplish more than a delay.

But if Elizabeth gets five times more interviews than Yolanda it seems that naming your kid Elizabeth is a no brainer.

Except that what's being indicated by that means Yolanda is a rose by a more obvious name and the problem isn't her name, but her fragrance. That is, what she is and how that's perceived by people who have a problem/bias. And when she arrives for all those interviews she's not going to show up in white face. But what if that would raise her chances. Would you be arguing as you are here, not that the people hiring her need to address a serious if subtle issue, but that Yolanda should chemically treat her skin and maybe straighten her hair as a "no brainer" means to fit in?

I don't understand how it would be productive to point out that: When it really is Yolanda's problem because she's the one that's going to drown.

Like suggesting that rape is a woman's problem because she's the victim. But I'd bet you wouldn't do that.

No, if Yolanda drowns because she didn't learn to swim before she got into the pool she'd bear some responsibility. In this case she's done nothing to warrant the treatment that itself is both unethical and illegal and the people who bear the responsibility are the ones who pass by her name because they can't swim in deeper waters of another sort.

 

[ok doser]

...when she arrives for all those interviews she's not going to show up in white face. ....

is she going to show up with ghetto attitude speaking ebonics?

 

[Angel4Truth]

is she going to show up with ghetto attitude speaking ebonics?

Thats a she? Are you sure?

 

[ok doser]

didn't look too close, but i think it's a dude playing a ghetto "guuurrrrrllfriend"


still, i've seen worse in the city

 

[ok doser]

Now if you had cancer and I told that because of the way the doctors weren't informing you that your chance of finding a cure were reduced by 17% that would set poorly with you and yours. Especially if it was because you were white.

imagine how blacks must feel when they hear about this:

there's a statistical bias!

it must be whitey's fault! :sibbie:

The violent crime rate in highly disadvantaged Black areas was 22 per 1,000 residents, not much different from the 20 per 1,000 rate in similar white communities.

so if you're hiring for a position, all other things being equal, wouldn't you want to shy away from those applicants whose names indicate that they come from that kind of an environment?

names like bubba, cletus, adolf hitler, shaniqua, trayvon?

 

[Lon]

Of course, because of the imbalance wrought by the privileges you've taken for granted.

Not exactly an imbalance. There are genuine differences between people, and obviously there are norms among groups that would 'naturally' favor the interests of those groups. It isn't always about privileged or neglect by any intention.

James Earl James called something of this: racialism where every rock turns up a racist or a racial issue where none is intended.

Is that racist? :nono: That is jumping on a narrative with little but emoting posture. "Innocent without guilty proof" is the baseline that seldom gets exercised. Some things are self-fulfilling. That said, I absolutely acquiesce problematics. I wasn't bullied by blacks, because I was white (I didn't know why they bullied me and 'black/white' would have been a simpleton explanation with my child-understanding). I was bullied because those kids didn't know anything else. I saw one of those guys doing well as a salesman a few years ago. I was both glad for him, and conflicted as to how mean and abusive he had been to me as a child. In contrast, there are a few of those kids who are dead now, some put to death on death row, some because of dangerous choices.

I didn't realize I could contact the local KKK (not sure we had that in the NW) or Aryan chapter to solve the problem. I just went home bloody a few times.

The picture is much more complicated than just skin color and so threads like this merely accentuate the problem without enough critical thought behind words. I do agree, Amendments are good, but these must always favor all people with no particular group (color, creed, religion, or preoccupation) advantaged over another. It means, regardless of who is the majority of any of the preceding particulars, that while any particular group can and should be favored in their particular circles, the larger group should learn grace extended, by way of good and right deference and invitation.

There is a need (not just a want) for the largest group to need to listen to and accomodate those with whom they may not 'naturally' hang out with. It is why we have labor unions as well, but the whole purpose and need is for us to be decent to one another, and even take a slight once or twice (like I have to when I'm ignored and looked over at any particular gathering where I'm more of an outsider looking in). It is okay for us to 1) be minorities without feeling slighted or ignored (we are, but rightly so a good number of times) and knowing where that's wrong. IOW, we can push too far for 'wants' and even some imagined 'rights' that aren't really rights, just us feeling small.

Message: I just don't want you feeling any purposeful alienation. I've many good friends who are not my color and/or not at the same station in life, and/or not the same faith. I care about them and yes, I may not invite them to all my functions and I'd not want them to feel slighted nor obligated to enjoin any particular interest I'd invite you to (i.e. church) and I don't feel slighted at your decline.

 

[ok doser]

Btw, it's about time for Trayvon's killer to make the news again !!!

I hope I never have to hear about that idiot again. lain:

:think:

 

[patrick jane]

:think:

You have solidified yourself as someone who creates and causes drama. I'm so glad you are banned for life on my forums.

 

[eider]

What are the specific privileges one is given by simply being white, in present-day America?

Are there any at all?

And who, specifically, is giving those privileges to white people?

That's easy........
You can show me by answering one simple question.
Do you think that black lives matter?