How do you feel about Sola Scriptura?

[rbdeli]

1. Sola scriptura doesn't say that (for the 3 millionth time)

Yes it does: Either you don't understand what Sola Scripture is, or you don't agree with the doctrine. Read as defined by questions?.org
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of "alone," "ground," "base," and the word scriptura meaning "writings" - referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true.

2. You don't have an interpretation...you subscribe to that of the RCC so it is their interpretation is it not?

The Church and bible are witness to one another. When I read the bible, I learn that it says exactly what the church teaches. I listen to my Church, and learn it's all in the bible. Where is the foundation and protector of the truth?

1. The catholic church has more than it's fair share of doctrinal disagreements within it's ranks so you can drop the "unity of the church" argument because it's just not valid.

Of course men within the the Church have had some disagremeents from time to time, but it has never caused changes in it's principles and doctrines in 2000 years. That is testimony to it's true, Apostolic holiness.

2. Is the pope himself not a mere mortal man?

Of course, he is a mortal man, but I'd hardly say, Mere. Was Apostle Peter a mere, mortal men or was he the Apostle given the keys of the Church by Christ? I would use the word, holy in place of mere.

 

[assuranceagent]

Yes it does: Either you don't understand what Sola Scripture is, or you don't agree with the doctrine. Read as defined by questions?.org
The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of "alone," "ground," "base," and the word scriptura meaning "writings" - referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true.

That definition is inaccurate.

That said, even if it was accurate, where in the definition does it say that in order for sola scriptura to be valid, we all have to have the same interpretation?

Here's the official definition of the doctrine:

The Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

The definition you quoted, like pretty much ALL those who have inaccurate understandings of the doctrine, focuses more on the words in the title of the doctrine than it's contents.

2. You don't have an interpretation...you subscribe to that of the RCC so it is their interpretation is it not?

The Church and bible are witness to one another. When I read the bible, I learn that it says exactly what the church teaches.

And that's the very problem with the RCC. You start with the teaching of the church and work back to scripture. Exactly backwards.

The RCC teaches a ton of things that aren't in the Bible: mediatorial Mary, papal infallibility, canonized sainthood, penances, priestly absolution, the insufficiency of the sufferings of Christ, the catholic 'scope' of the RCC, and on and on and on. I don't even need to argue this because anyone who isn't blinkered by the RCC can see it clearly.

Of course, he is a mortal man, but I'd hardly say, Mere. Was Apostle Peter a mere, mortal men or was he the Apostle given the keys of the Church by Christ? I would use the word, holy in place of mere.

The pope is a mere man. No more holy than you or I. And no more holy than Peter, who was himself a mere man. God is holy. Period.

 

[Choleric]

I am fully aware of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
I asked you to show me where in the Catechism it says that the Catholic doctrine is based on Works, and you responded with the sacraments. This shows that you are very ignorant and have an insufficient understanding of the Church's Doctrine of salvation, and the role that Sacraments play.

The Catholic Church believes Salvation is by Grace, and Grace alone, and it is stated in the Catechism as such. However, Grace does not mean that no response is required from us. Our salvation is a process of Faith and Works which stems from that Grace in God. Works that don't come through the Grace of God are worthless, just as Faith without Works is Dead, as in the book of James. We are justifed by our Faith working through God's love - Just as Paul says.

See my post here that is the response on the other thread that covers this topic pretty well.

But you are relying on mortal man. The First Protestant Church, broke away from the Catholic Church in the 1500s, and formed their own rules, based on their own, men's 'convenient' interpretations of the bible. Those rules have been rapidly changing by every way the wind blows. It was not until 1930 that ALL Christian churches banned contraception. What did the Catholic Church do about Contraception? When you break away from Christ's one Church, you cause a lot of trouble trying to find the truth. The Fundamentlist, Evangelist form of Christianity that we have today is the latest wave of new theology which originated in about 1920. No doubt, There will be thousands more in the coming decades.

the only mortal man I am relying on to interpret Scripture is myself. I will trust the inspired authors writings and the Holy Spirit to illuminate them to me.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things…

Horribly ignorant question. If you knew what the Catholic Church taught, and the bible half as well as you think, you'd know that is impossible. It is much more likely that you would get brainwashed through a Fundamentalist Cult, or any other number of non-Catholic derivitives, than a Catholic Church, which is the one, true Holy Apostolic Church of God as it says so in the bible. The Church has a lot of strict teachings about faith and morals, particularly about abortion, marriage, divorce, contraception, homosexuality. Is the Church wrong about these things? Since you read the bible, I'm sure you're 100% in line with what the Church teaches. If not, then you need to read some more. There is never the danger of the Church telling me to do something God doesn't want me to do.

I do read the Bible and I also know the salvation the RCC espouses is not the one in the Bible… See my post here

You think this because you have mistaken the Pope's role, and misunderstood what he says. Popes do not rewrite Church Doctrine. The doctrine on Salvation, Faith and morals has remained the same for 2000 years - precisely why the Protestants started their own Church/s.

The councils have most certainly rewritten Biblical Doctrine of salvation through grace alone and not grace that has to pass through some sacrament before I can have access to it. That is obvious to anyone who reads the Bible.

I wish so badly that a few of you would just take a couple of days to read the book I recommended because I am tired of correcting what you think the Catholic Church is, rather than engage in genuine discussions about why you disagree with what it really is. Born Fundamentalist / Born Again Catholic, by David Currie

He says it much better than I can.

A bank manager was asked how she could possibly keep up with all the counterfeit bills out there and how she could tell they were fake. She replied, “I study the authentic bill, and then it is easy to discern the real money from the fake.’

In order to understand the thousands of religions in the world, I would have to read thousands of books.

Rather than do that, I study the authentic, the Word of God and in it I find truth. Knowing the truth of the Word, I can compare all religions and easily discern the errors in the others.

 

[Barney]

So, you should be able to use sound reasoning or at the very least the bible to prove Sola Scriptura. Have at it.

I'm an atheist, but I agree with Rbdeli on this on. The Bible alone could not be the final authority when it came to what was God's will. The people who claim that it is seem to forget that the traditions of the catholic church are what led to the formation of the Bible in the first place. If not for the catholic church, the protestants would not even know what was scripture and what was not. That's also why it doesn't really matter if the catholic church's dogma is biblical or not. The same authority that allowed them to dictate what went into the Bible is the same authority that allows them to create their dogma.

Now, as to whether the official church history is correct and that it was really was founded by Jesus' deciples and those deciples' hand picked successors is another issue. But if protestants argue against that then they're sawing off the branch that they're sitting on, because if it's not true, then the Bible they hold so dear is not valid, either.

 

[Choleric]

I'm an atheist, but I agree with Rbdeli on this on. The Bible alone could not be the final authority when it came to what was God's will. The people who claim that it is seem to forget that the traditions of the catholic church are what led to the formation of the Bible in the first place. If not for the catholic church, the protestants would not even know what was scripture and what was not. That's also why it doesn't really matter if the catholic church's dogma is biblical or not. The same authority that allowed them to dictate what went into the Bible is the same authority that allows them to create their dogma.

Now, as to whether the official church history is correct and that it was really was founded by Jesus' deciples and those deciples' hand picked successors is another issue. But if protestants argue against that then they're sawing off the branch that they're sitting on, because if it's not true, then the Bible they hold so dear is not valid, either.

this is family business, and since you yourself admit to being agnostic, your opinion matters little.

 

[karstkid]

Do you agree with it? Disagree with it?

Here is an interesting thread about it.

I take a more Reformation view of Sola Scriptura. The Holy Bible is the supreme criterion of all truth. For example the Nicene Creed is truth as long as it attest to the Truth in the Bible. Scripture is not the only truth that exist. For example, the laws of physics such as gravity and thermodynamics are considered physical "truths".

 

[Frank Ernest]

No they would never go along with the title "Sola Scriptura" because it was linked to Martin Luther whom they considered blasphemous. What I'm saying is, don't you think that the Catholic Church would insist that all that they did and said was from scripture as well?

Yes. Add to that the RCC belief that only the Chruch can interpret Scripture properly.

Luther rightly seperated from the traditions and rules of the Church but in the end he only came up with his own traditions, along with omitting and adding to the Scriptures, all the while still crying "Sola Scriptura."

That was the dealbreaker. Luther wanted to decide what is Scripture and what isn't, as you say. Made it easy.

No worries. :up:

:darwinsm: Not a one!

 

[Door]

I take a more Reformation view of Sola Scriptura. The Holy Bible is the supreme criterion of all truth. For example the Nicene Creed is truth as long as it attest to the Truth in the Bible. Scripture is not the only truth that exist. For example, the laws of physics such as gravity and thermodynamics are considered physical "truths".

Gravity and thermodynamics are not truth. God is the only truth that exists, and God is not bound by gravity or thermodynamics.

 

[karstkid]

Gravity and thermodynamics are not truth. God is the only truth that exists, and God is not bound by gravity or thermodynamics.

Oh yes they are! I challenge you to jump off a 200 foot shear cliff without nets, ladders, ropes or anything to stop your fall. The "truth" is you will either survive but be horribly injured or be dead. The sun and the moon exist and that is a truth. Yes, Jesus and His Word is Truth with a capital "T". But, tornadoes, gravity, electricity, etc. is/are a truth(s). It is true that "God is not bound by gravity or thermodynamics". But, since He is Truth, He has created other "truths" with a small "t".

 

[Frank Ernest]

I'm an atheist,

Why does your profile say you are a Christian?

 

[Ranana_Kayano]

How do you feel about Sola Scriptura

How do you feel about Sola Scriptura

if I can, I will. But itll have to wait. Ive only got 0.25 to my name right now.

How long is this thing going on?

 

[Brother Vinny]

The facts as I see them: the doctrine of sola Scriptura cannot be found either explicitly nor implicitly in Scripture; that alone makes the doctrine self-defeating. The Bible never defines within itself what the canon of Scripture is, and so itself relies on an outside authority to determine its contents. Finally, the Bible makes the claim that there is a pillar and ground of truth, but it's describing the Church, not itself.

Jesus has promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, yet there is a mindset among some that the Church disappeared for 1500 years until the Protestant Deformation. Jesus promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth, yet there are those who believe the Bible languished until the 1800's when dispensationalism finally provided the correct method of interpreting it. What's missing is the sense that the Bible is the written part of the organic whole of Tradition, and that divorcing Holy Tradition from the Bible forever hinders any real progress in interpreting it correctly.

 

[freelight]

Scripture is not itself an 'authority', but the Spirit of truth itself.....

Scripture is not itself an 'authority', but the Spirit of truth itself.....

The facts as I see them: the doctrine of sola Scriptura cannot be found either explicitly nor implicitly in Scripture; that alone makes the doctrine self-defeating. The Bible never defines within itself what the canon of Scripture is, and so itself relies on an outside authority to determine its contents. Finally, the Bible makes the claim that there is a pillar and ground of truth, but it's describing the Church, not itself.

I voted 'Not', because in most religious traditions, while their 'scriptures' and 'inspired writings' are foundational (revered highly)...the 'keepers' and 'interpreters' of the holy text hold an 'authority' consonant with the scriptures guided by the Same Spirit...keeping the tradition's integrity.

The 'inspired texts' and the 'inspired custodians' both make up the ruling and guiding 'authority' as it were, as the Spirit continues to lead. The Sole and Only Authority is the Spirit of Truth (God) Himself...as he guides thru the 'written logos' and the 'inner logos' within the 'ministry' of the sacred tradition.


pj

 

[Ktoyou]

Keep this in mind, scripture addresses many under covenants that do not pertain to the Church Age, now scripture in final, when it is read properly, or rightly divided. This is why I keep saying that one needs a teacher and one today should learn enough to know a good teacher (minister). This is my point, not that any church has a tradition above scripture. However, with the theology has the wrong effect on understanding scripture, than it is not scripture that is flawed, but the theology. The problem is not with scripture, but how we understand it

 

[Trump Gurl]

It's probably profitable to define what it is:

Sola Sciptura is the doctrine that states that the Bible is the highest and final authority for church doctrine and practice, and that it stands alone in this position and regard.

Of course you know my vote.

A book cannot exercise authority, only men can. An apt analogy would be the U.S. Constitution and the Supreme Court.

Imagine if everybody was handed a pocket Constitution and then expected to govern themselves without courts. The result would be anarchy, just like the doctrinal anarchy of the protestant world of sects. The Supreme Court is needed to interpret the Constitution and make a ruling that we all then abide by. Of course, this is an imperfect analogy because both the U.S. Constitution and the Supreme Court are manmade inventions and prone to error.

The Church however is not a manmade invention. The Magisterium of the Church, the Successors of the Apostles, is guided by the Holy Spirit. Ergo, even though the Bible is the written word of God, it is the Church that rules on doctrine.