REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
Show me. I'm especially interested in the principle that murderers should be locked in prisons.

That's like asking me--Freak, show me the word Trinity.

I can't show you a verse that says, "Human cloning is evil" or "Criminals should be put in prisons" or "God is a Trinity."

But, I can show you where the Bible speaks of these issues indirectly but clearly.

 

[Turbo]

Yeah, like Romans 13:1-4.

It's 4am here, Freak. Goodnight.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo
Yeah, like Romans 13:1-4.

It's 4am here, Freak. Goodnight.

Good night!

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak



Crow, re-read what the New Covenant tells us:

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

Now which covenant brings death?

Freak, I have read this. I see this as applicable to the means of salvation, not criminal justice. The Jews pursued salvation by keeping the law, although even in this time grace underlay the law.

Grace has always existed, even under the law--an example from the time of Moses. By keeping the law, the Jews showed faith in God--the faith that made them keep the law brought about salvation, not just doing XYZ, but why they did XYZ. Christ rebukes the Pharasees for keeping the law but ignoring the underlying principle--that it was not the law itself which gave salvation under that covenant, but God, and that the law was also just.

Luke 11:42
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Another insight into the grace that underlay even the old covenant--

Exodus 33:17
So the LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name."

Freak, more people will die under the new covenant than the old. Revalations tells us this, and here is an end time prediction from Jeramiah 25

32 This is what the LORD Almighty says:

"Look! Disaster is spreading
from nation to nation;
a mighty storm is rising
from the ends of the earth."

33 At that time those slain by the LORD will be everywhere-from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground.


I still disagree with you.

Capital punishment has not gone, faded away as an embarassment from the past, and Jesus and God the Father of the OT are the same Jesus and God the Father that exist today and forever. Christ is returning, and the carnage is going to be terrible, and then a lot of people go to hell. He hasn't mellowed out, nor has God the Father. The means by which people interact with Christ and God the Father have changed, but not the underlying principles.

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Turbo
Just curious, have you read the article at the top of this thread? (I know it is a long article.)

:read:

Sorry for my late reply.
Yes I did, But I may have to reread it.
I'm guessing your comment implies my answer to the "prodical son" question is covered there.

 

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Now you obscure the truth, and run from the face of it.
No wonder people tire of debating you.
You cannot face the truth, when it is put in your face.
You argue, till death, even when you know you are wrong.
That is no way to grow, Freak. You'll stagnate, and become luke warm.

Ain't that calling the kettle black!?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
Sorry for my late reply.
Yes I did, But I may have to reread it.
I'm guessing your comment implies my answer to the "prodical son" question is covered there.

So as not to get your hopes up, no it does not talk about the prodigal son. I guess I was wondering if you thought the prodigal son parable overshadows the abundance of evidence that is presented.

Something to consider: The prodigal son story represents that God is ready and willing to forgive those who turn to Him humbly, no matter what wicked things they had done. It seems to me that the repentant thief on the cross (who said he was receiving his just punishment) is an example of this principle at work. Jesus told him he would be in Paradise that day.

What do you think?

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
How can you say this?
Did not Christ offer to allow the men to stone to death, the woman accused of adultery? The fact that nobody was worthy, aside, God condoned it. He is clearly in support of it.

As you say "God condoned it" BUT "nobody was worthy"

So lets look at today.
Who can say their hands are clean?
Who can throw a clean stone with dirty hands?
I think the only stone we can throw is at our selves.

Now lets look at clean hands.
Why did Jesus NOT throw a stone??

PLEASE someone answer that
I repeat

Why did Jesus NOT throw a stone??

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
As you say "God condoned it" BUT "nobody was worthy"

So lets look at today.
Who can say their hands are clean?
Who can throw a clean stone with dirty hands?
I think the only stone we can throw is at our selves.

Now lets look at clean hands.
Why did Jesus NOT throw a stone??

PLEASE someone answer that
I repeat

Why did Jesus NOT throw a stone??

That story is addressed in the article.

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Turbo
So as not to get your hopes up, no it does not talk about the prodigal son. I guess I was wondering if you thought the prodigal son parable overshadows the abundance of evidence that is presented.

Something to consider: The prodigal son story represents that God is ready and willing to forgive those who turn to Him humbly, no matter what wicked things they had done. It seems to me that the repentant thief on the cross (who said he was receiving his just punishment) is an example of this principle at work. Jesus told him he would be in Paradise that day.

What do you think?

First, Thanx, you just saved me a LOT of rereading.

second,I understand your point.
The question I have is.
How can a man know what is in another mans heart?

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Turbo
That story is addressed in the article.

OK, now I will have to reread:doh:

 

[brother Willi]

Be back later.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
How can a man know what is in another mans heart?

We can't know for sure. That's why it's important that governments obey God by punishing crime consistently, swiftly, and appropriately.

OK, now I will have to reread:doh:

Look for these heading in the article:
The Woman Caught In Adultery
God Forgave Adulterers Before
The Pharisees Wanted to Trap Christ
Jesus Did Not Repeal The Law

That might save you some time.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
Freak, more people will die under the new covenant than the old.

The Scriptures tells us that the Old Covenant is a Covenant of death.

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

I still disagree with you.

In despite of the above verse?

Capital punishment has not gone, faded away as an embarassment from the past.

Nobody has claimed the Old Covenant Laws were an embarassment, they served their purpose. But now we have a better Covenant. Where in the better Covenant is there an endorsement for the State to use the death penalty.....

He hasn't mellowed out, nor has God the Father. The means by which people interact with Christ and God the Father have changed, but not the underlying principles.

God's nature is one of love not of hate. Yes, God abhors evil and will punish evil doers but you need to keep the focus on the love of Jesus Christ which is the focal point of God's revelation.

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak


Nobody has claimed the Old Covenant Laws were an embarassment, they served their purpose. But now we have a better Covenant. Where in the better Covenant is there an endorsement for the State to use the death penalty.....

I believe that very thing has happened today, even if it is seldom acknowledged. This is why people who oppose the death penalty often throw out questions such as "Would you put someone to death who cursed their mother or father?" We Christians live in the world, and we have been deceived and corrupted by the views of the world until our own faith becomes an embarrassment when God commands that which seems wrong when viewed through the eyes of the world. Your endorsement for NT capital punishment? Christ did not abolish it, and Revalations shows it being used by Christ Himself.



[/QUOTE]God's nature is one of love not of hate. Yes, God abhors evil and will punish evil doers but you need to keep the focus on the love of Jesus Christ which is the focal point of God's revelation. [/QUOTE]

Revalations reveals a somewhat different aspect of God. God loves a whole bunch of people straight to hell after incredible carnage on earth. God has killed numerous people in the bible. Being a God who hates evil is not inconsistant with being a God who loves good, and those who admit and repent of their evil. The whole book of Revalations shows our loving God dishing out capital punishment bigtime.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Crow
I believe that very thing has happened today, even if it is seldom acknowledged.

The New Covenant is a superior Covenant that's probably why people tire of the insistence on going back to the Old.

Your endorsement for NT capital punishment? Christ did not abolish it, and Revalations shows it being used by Christ Himself.

Christ did abolish it as He did not call for a murderer's death (Paul). This was consistent with the teachings of the New. Revelations does not endorse the State's use of the death penalty.

The whole book of Revalations shows our loving God dishing out capital punishment bigtime.

That's one book (God's love supercedes His wrath--it's called mercy/grace) besides is hate part of the nature of God? Love is though, correct? What are the common thread throughout the Scriptures? It is redemption of man--loving man to Himself?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by HillbillyWilli
The question I have is.
How can a man know what is in another mans heart?

We don't...besides we all are unrighteous and deserve death.....but thank God for His grace! :thumb:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
Christ did abolish it as He did not call for a murderer's death (Paul).

But God did not call for the death of the murderer David. But you don't claim he abolished the death penalty by doing that. :think:

Revelations does not endorse the State's use of the death penalty.

Guess which book: "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword."

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Freak
That's one book

It's inspired revelation from God, is it not?

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by Freak
The New Covenant is a superior Covenant that's probably why people tire of the insistence on going back to the Old.

Christ did abolish it as He did not call for a murderer's death (Paul). This was consistent with the teachings of the New. Revelations does not endorse the State's use of the death penalty.

In the OT and NT both, God the Father and the Son did not kill everyone who merited the death penalty. God chose Saul of Tarsus to work through, and did not kill him.

On another occasion, look what happened to a couple who decided to lie to God--

Acts 5


Ananias and Sapphira

1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."
9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."
10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

That's one book (God's love supercedes His wrath--it's called mercy/grace) besides is hate part of the nature of God? Love is though, correct? What are the common thread throughout the Scriptures? It is redemption of man--loving man to Himself?

And Acts is yet another book. God feels both love and hatred.

Do you realize that the story of the redemption of man has a flip side? Not all men are going to be redeemed. The scriptures are as much a story of the fate of the unredeemed as it is of redemption.