Feedback requested on a new hypothesis on the origin of atheism

Randy Ruggles

New member
Hi, I'm not really sure where to post this but, since I'm a newbie here, I figured this was the best place to start. I made the following post on the Thinking Atheist forum a few weeks back and I'd now like to get the reaction of Christians. I will post it exactly as I did there. Here goes:
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Hello. This is my first time posting and even visiting here. I must say at the outset that I am not an atheist but a Christian theist. However, most of my friends are atheists and I enjoy discussing logic and reason with them and even engaging in some friendly debates from time to time with mutual respect.

I have a tremendous interest in science and am considering writing a book about a new hypothesis I have been working on for the origin of atheism.

Please allow me to explain.

First, this is a completely naturalistic and scientifically testable and falsifiable hypothesis. There is no appeal to a deity.

A common claim from atheists I encounter is that we are all born atheists, that atheism is the default position and that people typically come to their theistic beliefs through childhood indoctrination.

But new research in neuroscience, however, is showing that this appears not to be the case and that we are actually all born believers. For evidence, I point to the work of Dr. Justin Barrett (see link below) and also Dr Paul Bloom.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...laims.html

You have no doubt heard the explanation of religion given by Michael Shermer and others that evolution has caused us to see teleology in nature because of its survival advantage. If a rabbit hears a rustle in the bushes, it is better off to assume the noise came from a dangerous predator and either run or hide. Those rabbits that assumed the noise was merely the wind got eaten and thus did not pass on their genes. In this way, we are inclined to experience many "false-positives" and this, so the theory goes, is the origin of religion.

But if we are truly born believers, I would like to propose a hypothesis for what I call "atheopathy" - being born without a belief in God. Please note, I use the term "atheopath," not in a derogatory manner, but simply for someone born without a belief in God - much the same way a sociopath is born without empathy.

Here is my hypothesis:

1. Our starting assumption is not that a god exists or doesn't exist but that its existence is outside of the purview of science. We will not consider supernatural or non-natural explanations.

2. Theism is the default position. We are all born believers. Evolution has caused us to be this way due to its survival advantage.

3. Atheopaths lack a belief in God. They are "born that way." Their "agency detector" is broken. Studies have, in fact, demonstrated that theists see patterns that don't exist and atheists miss patterns that do exist. Their "pattern recognition software," so to speak, has been corrupted.

4. One mechanism that we know of which tends to break things and corrupt information is genetic mutation.

5. So, my testable, falsifiable prediction is that one or more genetic mutations are responsible for atheopathy.

Incidentally, a connection has been made between atheism and autism in the peer-reviewed literature. Perhaps if we find the cause of autism, we will be closer to finding the cause of atheopathy. (Hint: I don't believe it is vaccines. ;) )

Any feedback from members is sincerely appreciated. This is a serious hypothesis that I believe deserves careful consideration and study with the intent to understand why some people are born without a belief in God.

Also, please do not take offense to anything I have said. You might choose to look at this hypothesis as humans evolving away from religion and, for atheopaths, any remnant of faith being vestigial.

Thank you for your time and attention.
 

musterion

Well-known member
The hypothesis fails at point 3. The Bible cannot be clearer that those who reject the knowledge of God are doing exactly that: rejecting what all innately know of Him. No one is exempt from that. That means it's a choice they make; therein lies the condemnation for making it. What point 3 describes is a kind of backdoor Calvinistic reprobation, which won't fly, because like Calvinism is exempts those who CANNOT believe from any just judgment for unbelief.
 

Randy Ruggles

New member
The hypothesis fails at point 3. The Bible cannot be clearer that those who reject the knowledge of God are doing exactly that: rejecting what all innately know of Him. No one is exempt from that. That means it's a choice they make; therein lies the condemnation for making it. What point 3 describes is a kind of backdoor Calvinistic reprobation, which won't fly, because like Calvinism is exempts those who CANNOT believe from any just judgment for unbelief.


As a Christian, I agree with you. But let's do a thought experiment. Imagine, for moment that God does not exist. Everything has come into existence through natural, unguided processes. Most people are born with a predisposition to seeing teleology in nature and inventing gods because it has an evolutionary advantage. But a rare few are born without this natural ability. What is the scientific explanation?
 

Tyrathca

New member
:chuckle: I think you are going to be disappointed in the reaction of your fellow Christians.

Anyway the idea that genetics night shape whether a person will be an atheist or theist has merit though you may be focusing on genotype at the expense of phenotype. Naturally if genetics can shape our thinking about other subjects it can shape our thinking about this. A genetic predisposition to believe/not believe.

A problem I see in your hypothesis is that it isn't testable at present, despite what you say. You haven't actually defined what you think infants might be born believing. Is it that an agency is watching them? That an agency controls the world around them? Or more specifically that this agency is all powerful and separate from their parents. Do they believe that this agency is singular or can it be multiple? Or even more specific are we talking about the Christian god or any god? (And what then is a god to the mind of an infant?).

You're probably opening up a can of worms you may not want to deal with. Namely can you define "God"? Can you simplify/compartmentalise him enough that an infant could grasp the concept in order to be born with the idea of it?

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
 

musterion

Well-known member
There's no point to pursuing his proposed thought exercise because there's nowhere productive it can possibly go. It resembles the pot-addled musings of a stoned college freshman who is starting to think a major in Philosophy is a good idea, and deserves as much attention.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
There's no point to pursuing his proposed thought exercise because there's nowhere productive it can possibly go. It resembles the pot-addled musings of a stoned college freshman who is starting to think a major in Philosophy is a good idea, and deserves as much attention.
:rotfl:
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
:chuckle: I think you are going to be disappointed in the reaction of your fellow Christians.

Anyway the idea that genetics night shape whether a person will be an atheist or theist has merit though you may be focusing on genotype at the expense of phenotype. Naturally if genetics can shape our thinking about other subjects it can shape our thinking about this. A genetic predisposition to believe/not believe.

A problem I see in your hypothesis is that it isn't testable at present, despite what you say. You haven't actually defined what you think infants might be born believing. Is it that an agency is watching them? That an agency controls the world around them? Or more specifically that this agency is all powerful and separate from their parents. Do they believe that this agency is singular or can it be multiple? Or even more specific are we talking about the Christian god or any god? (And what then is a god to the mind of an infant?).

You're probably opening up a can of worms you may not want to deal with. Namely can you define "God"? Can you simplify/compartmentalise him enough that an infant could grasp the concept in order to be born with the idea of it?

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
All babies are born believers, but the bad babies grow up to not believe -
 

Randy Ruggles

New member
:chuckle: I think you are going to be disappointed in the reaction of your fellow Christians.

Anyway the idea that genetics night shape whether a person will be an atheist or theist has merit though you may be focusing on genotype at the expense of phenotype. Naturally if genetics can shape our thinking about other subjects it can shape our thinking about this. A genetic predisposition to believe/not believe.

A problem I see in your hypothesis is that it isn't testable at present, despite what you say. You haven't actually defined what you think infants might be born believing. Is it that an agency is watching them? That an agency controls the world around them? Or more specifically that this agency is all powerful and separate from their parents. Do they believe that this agency is singular or can it be multiple? Or even more specific are we talking about the Christian god or any god? (And what then is a god to the mind of an infant?).

You're probably opening up a can of worms you may not want to deal with. Namely can you define "God"? Can you simplify/compartmentalise him enough that an infant could grasp the concept in order to be born with the idea of it?

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk

Excellent questions, thank you. The research I have done - including contacting some of the lead researchers in this area such as Paul Bloom and Justin Barrett - says that we are predisposed to see teleology in nature and the design would be by someone other than the child's parents. I don't know if it's one god or multiple gods. The research I have studied has never suggested more than one. It would not be the Christian God per se. Any attributes of religion would be learned beliefs.

This actually has been tested and has been confirmed in twin studies among other research.

". . . in one study of adopted twins, the researchers looked at religious belief in a number of adopted twins raised apart. They found exactly the same result--greater similarity in identical twin pairs, even if raised apart. The conclusion is unavoidable: faith is definitely influenced by genes."

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/what-twins-reveal-about-god-gene

That's not the controversial part of my hypothesis. I'm even inclined to say it is a scientific fact. The more controversial part is whether anyone at all is ever born atheist and what causes this. I have been studying dopamine and its affect on religiosity. People with Parkinson's have less dopamine and sometimes lose their religious beliefs. (See story at the link below about the World War 2 veteran):

https://aeon.co/essays/the-dopamine-switch-between-atheist-believer-and-fanatic

It turns out that low dopamine levels can be caused by a mutation of the MTHFR gene.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ic-mutation-can-affect-mental-physical-health
 

Randy Ruggles

New member
See Randy? This guy is the norm not the exception here. :chuckle:

Ha, ha! It's okay. I get much worse from the atheists which usually includes copious amounts of profanity. They think everyone is born atheists and deny the science that doesn't support their belief.
 

Randy Ruggles

New member
There's no point to pursuing his proposed thought exercise because there's nowhere productive it can possibly go. It resembles the pot-addled musings of a stoned college freshman who is starting to think a major in Philosophy is a good idea, and deserves as much attention.

It actually happens to be a scientific hypothesis for which there appears to be much support. It's also cool that, if true, it would support the Christian worldview. But we can't do science by starting with, "The Bible says everyone knows God exists." I believe that's true and you believe that's true but that's not how science is done.
 

Tyrathca

New member
Ha, ha! It's okay. I get much worse from the atheists which usually includes copious amounts of profanity.
And that is why I don't bother with atheist forums much anymore. Going to a forum dedicated to a particular group often attracts the most extreme and intolerant members of said group (TOL is no different, it's just more entertaining for me because they're not affiliated with me)
They think everyone is born atheists and deny the science that doesn't support their belief.
TO be fair you haven't actually defined what belief you believe people are born with let alone the evidence for it.

So far you've provided three journalism articles. One is a brief letter by a religion correspondent who makes a terrible argument by trying to extrapolate some research to mean something it doesn't even imply. Then there is a New Scientist article behind a pay wall but from what I was allowed to read it seems that their headline was hyperbole for attention when really they are talking about a strong predisposition to believe in supernatural/deities/etc. Then another journalism article that talks of a project on the matter but is light on detail except citing a study regarding children's understanding of agency other than their own (the summary is, they don't understand it ver well for many years and make do with gross assumptions that are probably useful while ignorant and young) and a study that somehow implied that humans instinctively believe they will persist after death.


To be honest I'm very disappointed from someone who started out talking big about scientifically testable and falsifiable hypothesizes. Clearly you haven't much experience in the matter as you should understand the importance of references. That means that scientific journalism or commentary articles about studies aren't worth much at all, what matters is peer reviewed published research which you cite directly. (If you'd done some science at my old University you'd have failed your assignments miserably doing what you've done here). Going "oh look I can find a scholar who sort of maybe agrees with me therefore you're unscientific to not believe me too!" is not science and not persuasive, in fact you're falling into the same pitfalls many of the creationists on this site regularly fall into just coached in better language (at least you're not quote mining... yet....)
 

Randy Ruggles

New member
And that is why I don't bother with atheist forums much anymore. Going to a forum dedicated to a particular group often attracts the most extreme and intolerant members of said group (TOL is no different, it's just more entertaining for me because they're not affiliated with me)
TO be fair you haven't actually defined what belief you believe people are born with let alone the evidence for it.

So far you've provided three journalism articles. One is a brief letter by a religion correspondent who makes a terrible argument by trying to extrapolate some research to mean something it doesn't even imply. Then there is a New Scientist article behind a pay wall but from what I was allowed to read it seems that their headline was hyperbole for attention when really they are talking about a strong predisposition to believe in supernatural/deities/etc. Then another journalism article that talks of a project on the matter but is light on detail except citing a study regarding children's understanding of agency other than their own (the summary is, they don't understand it ver well for many years and make do with gross assumptions that are probably useful while ignorant and young) and a study that somehow implied that humans instinctively believe they will persist after death.


To be honest I'm very disappointed from someone who started out talking big about scientifically testable and falsifiable hypothesizes. Clearly you haven't much experience in the matter as you should understand the importance of references. That means that scientific journalism or commentary articles about studies aren't worth much at all, what matters is peer reviewed published research which you cite directly. (If you'd done some science at my old University you'd have failed your assignments miserably doing what you've done here). Going "oh look I can find a scholar who sort of maybe agrees with me therefore you're unscientific to not believe me too!" is not science and not persuasive, in fact you're falling into the same pitfalls many of the creationists on this site regularly fall into just coached in better language (at least you're not quote mining... yet....)


So what is your position then? Do you believe we are born atheists? I don't really want to get bogged down in proving the premise that we are born believers. I'll do that in the book I'm writing and it's really not controversial. I can point you to plenty of resources and talks, etc. but I doubt you would have the time to go through all of them. This should be the easy part. The concept that we are born with a predisposition to believe is a fact. Even atheists like Dawkins, Shermer and Pinker admit that.

What I'm interested in is the cause for people who are born without that inclination. Twin studies have shown that there is a genetic basis for belief.
 
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