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  • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Unlike others, I did not "resist the Spirit" which comes with the gospel (1 Thess.1:5).
    In other words, as I and Spurgeon maintain, you were wiser and more discerning.

    This is part and parcel your view:

    “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
    Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.

    There is no other explanation for your "Unlike others, I did not resist...," for, as indicated above, you made use of what was given you since you assume you were born with the power to turn yourself to God. If only others has done the same with their grace as you have. Pat yourself on the back for your wisdom, Jerry.

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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    • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
      [FONT=trebuchet ms]In other words, as I and Spurgeon maintain, you were wiser and more discerning.
      No, everyone should believe the gospel because it is the absolute truth. There is no merit in believing something which is true. I am not wiser or more discerning than others who do not believe the gospel. Instead, I do not "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts 7:51) as some men do.

      Again, there is no merit in believing something that is absolutely true, and in this case the truth comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). And since I did not resist the Holy Spirit then I believe the gospel. And as a result of believing I was "born again"(regenerated), the truth revealed by both Peter and James here:
      "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

      "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

      The Calvinists have it backward. The Scriptures reveal that a person is "born again" (regenerated) as a result of his faith.

      The Calvinists teach that a person is "born again" (regenerated) prior to faith.

      When presented with these words of Peter and James you just run and hide! Do you think that with time they are going to just disappear?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        I am not wiser or more discerning than others who do not believe the gospel. Instead, I do not "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts 7:51) as some men do.
        Your answer is a tepid attempt to avoid the obvious. Why are you able to not resist while your neighbor does?

        AMR
        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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        Learn Reformed Doctrine
        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
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        • I don't know why you insist on creating contradiction where there is none.

          1 Peter 1:23 is no problem for the Calvinist, in fact, it backs up the Ordo Solutis you took from Sproul's book.

          1. We are deaf to the gospel and blind to its truth per 1 Cor 2:14. Lost people can't discern the truths of the gospel because they are spiritual truths.
          2. The gospel is preached to us.
          3. The Holy Spirit of God, through the Word of God, causes us to be born again.
          4. Consequently, we are able to believe that word where before our regeneration we were unable to discern spiritual truths.
          5. We believe.

          Ergo, regeneration precedes faith.

          Now, your Ordo Solutis has to go something like this.

          1. We aren't really deaf to the gospel and blind to its truths even though scripture says we are.
          2. We hear the gospel preached to us.
          3. We believe the gospel, we cause ourselves to be born again (contrary to 1 Peter 1:3).
          4. We are born again and receive the Spirit of God (which we don't really didn't need in the first place since we need no Divine help understanding spiritual things.)


          The first problem with your Ordo Solutis is that you aren't really born again by the word, you are born again by your own inner ability to believe. Being born again isn't a need for you in order to understand Spiritual truths, you can do that just fine by yourself. Being, born again is your prize for being spiritually smarter, more spiritually sensitive or just plain a better person that those who don't respond in faith to the preaching of the gospel.

          The second problem with your Ordo Solutis is that it runs exactly crossways from what Paul teaches in 1 Cor 2:14.
          αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
          Worthy is the Lamb

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dialogos View Post
            Now, your Ordo Solutis has to go something like this.

            We aren't really deaf to the gospel and blind to its truths even though scripture says we are.
            I do not believe that anyone is originally blind to the gospel and the following words of Paul prove that fact:
            "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

            Here we read that the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. And the purpose as to why he blinds them is "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel." That means that those who are perishing did indeed at one time have the ability to see the light of the gospel.

            After all, it is impossible to blind the minds of anyone to the truth of the gospel unless they have the ability in the first place to see the light of the gospel. The verb form of the word "blind" means to "make blind." It is impossible to "make blind" someone who is already blind.

            The Calvinists must believe that the god of this age blinds those who are already blind! That idea is ridiculous.

            Here the Lord Jesus illustrates that the word of God works in concert with the Spirit and that union results in life:

            "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
            (Jn.6:63).

            We can understand that the gospel also works in concert with the Holy Spirit:

            "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).

            Even though Paul makes it plain that the gospel comes in much power and in the Holy Spirit the Calvinists say that it is powerless to save anyone unless a person is first "born again."

            The Calvinists teach that a person is "born again" or "regenerated" prior to "faith" despite the fact that both Peter and James make it plain that being "born again" happens as a result of faith:

            "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

            "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

            We have been discussing this subject for quite some time and you and Mr. Religion continue to avoid these passages like the plague!
            Last edited by Jerry Shugart; January 10th, 2017, 08:30 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              Your answer is a tepid attempt to avoid the obvious. Why are you able to not resist while your neighbor does?
              I will give you a couple examples of why some men do not come to the light of the gospel and it is not because they do not have the ability to come to its light:

              "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (Jn.3:18-20).

              The reason why some men do not come to the light of the gospel is because their deeds are evil, not because they lack the ability. Here is another reason why some do not come to the light of the gospel:

              "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
              (2 Cor.4:3-4).

              How does the god of this age blind the minds of some people to the light of the gospel? One way it happens it that the minions of the god of this age teach that no one can be saved apart from works of one kind or another. Those who believe this lie are blinded to the truth of the gospel which declares that "grace" and "works" are mutually exclusive.

              And again, this has nothing to do with the idea that those who do not come to the light do not do so because they do not have the ability.
              Last edited by Jerry Shugart; December 25th, 2016, 07:41 AM.

              Comment


              • Thanks be to God I am not like my neighbor...sigh.

                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                I will give you a couple examples of why some men do not come to the light of the gospel and it is not because they do not have the ability to come to its light:

                The reason why some men do not come to the light of the gospel is because their deeds are evil, not because they lack the ability.
                So you had none or less evil deeds than another? Good for you!

                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                Here is another reason why some do not come to the light of the gospel:

                "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
                (2 Cor.4:3-4).

                How does the god of this age blind the minds of some people to the light of the gospel?
                So fortunately you were not one of those so blinded? Again, congratulations!

                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                And again, this has nothing to do with the idea that those who do not come to the light do not do so because they do not have the ability.
                You just keep making my point, Jerry:

                http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4889197

                All your responses simply indicate you were somehow more wise, more discerning, more fortunate than your neighbor. Wow!

                AMR
                Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                Do you confess?
                Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                AMR's Randomata Blog
                Learn Reformed Doctrine
                I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                The best TOL Social Group: here.
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                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                  So you had none or less evil deeds than another? Good for you!
                  Of course there are many people now in prisons who have committed many more evil acts than I have ever thought of committing. I guess that you cannot say the same?

                  Besides that, the verses which I quoted do not say that the reason why those who loved darkness didn't come to the light was because they didn't have the ability. Instead, here is the reason:

                  "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved"
                  (Jn.3:18-20).

                  Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                  So fortunately you were not one of those so blinded? Again, congratulations!
                  I know many people who will just believe what some men say about the Scriptures because they are too lazy to investigate what is actually said in the Scriptures. The mind's of those people are easily blinded to the truth of the gospel. On the other hand, when I was told this or that about what the gospel says I did investigate on my own to find out the truth. Therefore, my mind was not blinded to the truth of the gospel because that truth is very clear.

                  You just keep making my point, Jerry:
                  The only point which you have made is the fact that you continue to run away as fast as you can from the verses which prove that the ideas put forth by the Calvinists are in error:
                  "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                  "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

                  Run man, run!

                  Comment


                  • Jerry Shugart was "special" when he was lost, nothing like his lost neighbor

                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    The only point which you have made is the fact that you continue to run away as fast as you can from the verses which prove that the ideas put forth by the Calvinists are in error:
                    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                    "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

                    Run man, run!
                    Jerry, as you declare victory spend some time comparing my responses to your facile quotations of Scripture while thinking you have met your burden:

                    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4888707

                    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4888477

                    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4886893

                    As the evidence indicates, when you can meet me at even half the distance that I have traveled in substantively responding to you, perhaps discussing "victory" will take place. For now, you have done nothing but repeat yourself, seasoning boldface formatting of Scripture with some naked opinions, never directly interacting with the actual details of my responses. Now who do you think is the one running?

                    Your responses to me continue to indicate you believe you are special. Indeed, apparently you are not like the neighbor who apparently possesses the same libertarian free will you do yet does not grasp what you grasped. Thanks be to God that when it comes to the teachings of Scripture about the state of all the lost, you are the exception (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

                    All I am forced to do is congratulate you for your wonderfulness.


                    AMR
                    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                    Do you confess?
                    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                    AMR's Randomata Blog
                    Learn Reformed Doctrine
                    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                    The best TOL Social Group: here.
                    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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                    • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                      As the evidence indicates, when you can meet me at even half the distance that I have traveled in substantively responding to you, perhaps discussing "victory" will take place.
                      It is you who continues to close your eyes to the truth concerning being "born again" (regeneration) as revealed by the words of both Peter and James:

                      "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
                      (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                      "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created"
                      (Jas.1:18).

                      These verses demonstrate that being "born again" comes as a result of believing the gospel. Not, as you and the Calvinists teach, before believing the gospel.

                      I have done the best that I can do in order to try to get you to actually discuss the meaning of these verses but you continue to refuse to discuss them!

                      I certainly am not declaring victory because I have failed to get you to actually face the truth in regard to what Peter and James say about being "born again."

                      As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!

                      Comment


                      • As Was Demonstrated - Jerry Doubles Down Yet Again

                        Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                        Jerry, as you declare victory spend some time comparing my responses to your facile quotations of Scripture while thinking you have met your burden:

                        http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4888707

                        http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4888477

                        http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post4886893

                        As the evidence indicates, when you can meet me at even half the distance that I have traveled in substantively responding to you, perhaps discussing "victory" will take place. For now, you have done nothing but repeat yourself, seasoning boldface formatting of Scripture with some naked opinions, never directly interacting with the actual details of my responses. Now who do you think is the one running?

                        Your responses to me continue to indicate you believe you are special. Indeed, apparently you are not like the neighbor who apparently possesses the same libertarian free will you do yet does not grasp what you grasped. Thanks be to God that when it comes to the teachings of Scripture about the state of all the lost, you are the exception (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14).

                        All I am forced to do is congratulate you for your wonderfulness.


                        AMR
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        It is you who continues to close your eyes to the truth concerning being "born again" (regeneration) as revealed by the words of both Peter and James:

                        "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
                        (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                        "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created"
                        (Jas.1:18).

                        These verses demonstrate that being "born again" comes as a result of believing the gospel. Not, as you and the Calvinists teach, before believing the gospel
                        Q.E.D.

                        AMR
                        Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                        Do you confess?
                        Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                        AMR's Randomata Blog
                        Learn Reformed Doctrine
                        I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                        Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                        Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                        The best TOL Social Group: here.
                        If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
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                        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          Q.E.D.
                          The only thing which you have proven is that you continue to run away from these two verses as fast as you can:
                          "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                          "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created"
                          (Jas.1:18).

                          These verses demonstrate that being "born again" comes as a result of believing the gospel. Not, as you and the Calvinists teach, before believing the gospel.

                          The fact that you refuse to even discuss what is said in these verses tells me that you have no answer to what is said. The sad thing is that you continue to cling to what some men say about the Scriptures instead of actually believing the truth which is revealed by Peter and James.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BrianJOrr View Post
                            So, what did it necessitate? He obviously had a purpose in mind, right?
                            God the cause, not the responce
                            So, what?

                            believe it!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                              Given that our wills are driven by motives, the unbeliever's motives can only be to sin more or sin less. Nothing the unbeliever does is for the glory of God. Hence, their choices are but choices borne of evil motives. Can the unbeliever choose among these competing evil motives? Of course. In fact, that is all that the unbeliever can do: choosing among competing evil motives.

                              But...to assert that the lost possess the moral ability to choose Light over Darkness ignores the dire state of all who are lost in Adam (
                              Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). The lost require a supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit to give them a new heart (Eze. 36:26)—regeneration or what is called "born anew"such that they will now possess the moral ability to choose to glorify God, beginning with sure faith and repentance.

                              We have to be careful when we say God or the Devil is working within us. God is not doing the believing and the repenting for us any more than the Devil is doing the sinning for us. We do these things, within the bounds of our spontaneous free will, that is, the liberty of choosing according to our greatest inclinations at the moment we so choose. We believers are indeed God's workmanship, which does not mean we are but passive recipients of God's actions. There is a concurrency of God's will upon us and our own newly regenerated wills. God uses means, such as the hearing of the Good News, to bring about His ends for all that He has ordained.

                              For a more detailed discussion of this see my:

                              http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post1535835

                              AMR
                              What choice does the lost have? What are the competing motives? Pride and humility.

                              Humility does not exert power. We are powerless. Humility recognizes and embraces and chooses to live in this reality. The Devil has been whispering incites of pride from the beginning.

                              The Spirit whispers of the love of God found in contriteness of heart and spirit.

                              The devil does not give up easily on a found soul as Paul aptly warns. "Do not become arrogant but be afraid.... Otherwise you also will be cut off" Romans 11:20,22

                              And again," Since we these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. " 2 Corinthians 7:1

                              We all have choices to make and He holds us all accountable... will we choose life or death?
                              Last edited by Jamie Gigliotti; December 27th, 2016, 09:19 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                                It is you who continues to close your eyes to the truth concerning being "born again" (regeneration) as revealed by the words of both Peter and James:

                                "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
                                (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                                "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created"
                                (Jas.1:18).

                                These verses demonstrate that being "born again" comes as a result of believing the gospel. Not, as you and the Calvinists teach, before believing the gospel.

                                I have done the best that I can do in order to try to get you to actually discuss the meaning of these verses but you continue to refuse to discuss them!

                                I certainly am not declaring victory because I have failed to get you to actually face the truth in regard to what Peter and James say about being "born again."

                                As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink!
                                Hi Jerry,
                                I tend to agree with your conclusion, but I don't see how those verses prove that. Can you explain why? maybe the context is necessary...?

                                Comment

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