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CalvinistBlunder: Regeneration Precedes Faith

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  • Theology Club: CalvinistBlunder: Regeneration Precedes Faith

    The Calvinists teach that the elect are regenerated or given life PRIOR to believing. however, we can see in the following verse that life comes as a result of faith and not PRIOR to believing:
    " And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

    We also know that it is not until the sinner is in union with Christ is he made alive and that does not happen until one's transgressions areforgiven:
    "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:13).

    Before a person can be made alive together with Christ and have their sins forgiven they must first believe:
    " Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

    So we can see two different verses from the Bible which demonstrates that regeneration does not precede faith, as the Calvinists teach.

  • #2
    Were any quickened while they were dead in trespasses and sins?
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
      Were any quickened while they were dead in trespasses and sins?
      The word "quickened" means "to make one alive" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

      So all sinner are made alive together with Christ from being dead in trespasses:
      "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:13).

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      • #4
        So then were we dead or alive? we wasn't in our coffins so dead here can only mean spiritually dead, dead to God. Then God spoke to us and we CAME ALIVE.

        Was it just the preacher speaking to us? faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
        One lavished upon in the Beloved
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        • #5
          The Ordo Salutis, which is the order of salvation, as Calvinists see it in Scripture.

          Please note how it is all of God. He is sovereign in our salvation.
          I will give just a few verses, but there are many more.

          We are elect by God before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)
          Our sins are atoned for on the cross by Jesus Christ at the time of His crucifixion. (1Peter 2:24)
          We are called by God in His time. (1 Cor 1:9 ; Matt 22:14 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ; Heb 9:15 )
          We are regenerated by God. (Eph 2:4,5 ; 1Peter 1:3 ; Col 2:13, John 3:3, 5)
          At our conversion, we put our faith in Christ and repent of our sin. ( 2Tim 2:25 ; Acts 20:21 )
          We are justified by God. ( Romans 4:25 ; Romans 5:1,2 ; Titus 3:5-8 )
          We are sanctified at that moment but continue the process of sanctification as we grow in grace and mature as Christians. ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ; 1 Peter 1:1,2 ; John 17:17 )
          We are glorified when we either die or Christ returns. (Romans 8:30 ; 1 Cor 15 )

          You must understand that although there is an order, the time frame between being called-regenerated-converted when we are granted faith and repentance-justified and initially sanctified....are in a very moment.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
            So then were we dead or alive? we wasn't in our coffins so dead here can only mean spiritually dead, dead to God. Then God spoke to us and we CAME ALIVE.
            When we hear and believe the gospel is when we come to life. The gospel comes in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5) and those who do not resist the Holy Spirit will believe the gospel and receive life.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The 5 solas View Post
              Our sins are atoned for on the cross by Jesus Christ at the time of His crucifixion. (1Peter 2:24)
              WRONG!

              We are not baptized or identified with the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross until we believe and are baptized into Jesus Christ:
              " Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).

              It is not until a person believes can he say the following:
              "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

              No one is elected for salvation until they believe:
              "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

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              • #8
                Jerry assumes some minuscule remnant of goodness lurks within those fallen in the sin of Adam such that these persons can actually not sin and choose the righteousness of God without God replacing their heart of stone with one of flesh beforehand. All contra the clear teachings of Scripture, of course.

                As I have noted, those that deny original sin find themselves on a slippery slope to all manner of bizarre views.

                AMR
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  WRONG!

                  We are not baptized or identified with the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross until we believe and are baptized into Jesus Christ:
                  " Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).

                  It is not until a person believes can he say the following:
                  "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

                  No one is elected for salvation until they believe:
                  "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
                  You fall into the old connundrum of what about the BILLIONS who have lived and died without hearing...just bad luck I suppose.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    WRONG!

                    We are not baptized or identified with the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross until we believe and are baptized into Jesus Christ:
                    " Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:3-4).
                    This is an awesome verse. It actually means that Baptism is an outward sign of the inward reality that one has been saved. The illustration is of course, going down into the water as though our old self is being buried, showing it has died....then, rising up from the water in new life in Christ. Of course, this is just a sign, there is no salvific grace bestowed upon the person.

                    That has nothing to do with the point you were trying to make..but this one does.
                    1 Peter 2:24 states, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed."
                    Our sins, past/present/future, were nailed to the cross with Christ on that day. We are not Baptized or recognized as Christians until the time that God chooses to call us and the Ordo Salutis unfolds.

                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    It is not until a person believes can he say the following:
                    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).
                    People around here seem to say it all the time yet deny basic tenets of the Christian faith. Having said that though, it is an amazing verse!

                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

                    No one is elected for salvation until they believe:
                    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).
                    Take a look at the verse you chose to quote. It is saying the opposite of what you are trying to prove. It is saying that God has chosen you to salvation.....guess what that is? Election! We are chosen before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, that is why we "get saved".

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The 5 solas View Post
                      This is an awesome verse. It actually means that Baptism is an outward sign of the inward reality that one has been saved.
                      No, it is speaking of being baptized into Christ, into the Body of Christ"
                      "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).

                      No one is baptized or identified with the Lord Jesus' death until he believes and is baptized into the Body of Christ by One Spirit (1 Cor.12:13).

                      It is not until a person believes that can he say the following:
                      "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

                      Take a look at the verse you chose to quote. It is saying the opposite of what you are trying to prove. It is saying that God has chosen you to salvation.....guess what that is? Election! We are chosen before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, that is why we "get saved".
                      You forgot to mention why we are chosen to get saved, and that is because we believe the truth:
                      "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                        Jerry assumes some minuscule remnant of goodness lurks within those fallen in the sin of Adam such that these persons can actually not sin and choose the righteousness of God without God replacing their heart of stone with one of flesh beforehand.
                        I assume no such thing.

                        I base my ideas on the Bible, and on this subject I quoted two verses which support my view.

                        You know, the same verses which you ignored!

                        Instead of addressing those verses you made a false accusation against me! Typical!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          You forgot to mention why we are chosen to get saved, and that is because we believe the truth:
                          You need to ask the further question, WHY we believe the truth.
                          The Bible teaches us, salvation is all of God.

                          Ephesians 1:3-14....the whole passage is so filled with the glory of God and His mercy, it need to all be read so one can revel in His gift.

                          Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

                          11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

                          I simply adore this passage. It is so God glorifying. We see here the triune nature of God as well, Father,Son and Spirit are all mentioned and their work.

                          I bolded the portions that show we are in fact chosen, as well as the reason why we were chosen. The Scripture says, it was according to the purpose of His will and it is to the praise of His glorious grace!

                          If anyone has not caught on yet....it is all about God!

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                          • #14
                            The Calvinists teach that the elect are regenerated or given life PRIOR to believing.
                            Believing / Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, and we know that those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7-8

                            7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

                            8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

                            To be in the flesh means to be unregenerated, a natural man. Jesus says as contrasting the Teo births Jn 3:6-7

                            6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

                            7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

                            Now since those in the flesh cannot please God with Faith, it stands to reason that man must first born of the Spirit, have Spiritual Life in order to believe !

                            So no matter how one understands Jn 20:30-31, it cannot mean that man believes prior to New Birth, or we have a contradiction before us !
                            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                            Charles Spurgeon !

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                            • #15
                              jerry

                              When we hear and believe the gospel is when we come to life.
                              Not one scripture says that !

                              In fact, Jesus tells us that one must be of God to hear God's words, or we cannot hear it Jn 8:43,47

                              43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

                              47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

                              The unregenerate is not of God !

                              And besides that jerry, you hear the Gospel every day here and dont believe it,you reject it in the name of calvinism !
                              "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                              preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                              called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                              a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                              Charles Spurgeon !

                              Comment

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