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Will Duffy YouTube Debate v CJ Borns Open Theism 11/23/19

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  • #76
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
    Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

    I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.

    is that the open theist position that God lied when God said Hezekiah would die?
    That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

    Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

    Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

    Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.

    or the open theist God was guessing Hezekiah would die?
    False dichotomy.

    God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

    God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

    Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result.

    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life
    Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?

    Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

    And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

    Don't do evil that good may come of it?

    God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!

    and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    Also:
    http://kgov.com/miracles

    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse
    He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

    Who's putting the cart before the horse again?

    Originally posted by JudgeRightly;
    It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

    Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?
    Jesus is God
    I'm glad you think so too.

    So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?

    with those two verses
    There is only one verse in the portion you quoted.

    so are you trying to make God in mans image
    . . .
    or

    proving my point that it is God knows all things as it is from the Holy Spirit that they know all things 1 John 2:20
    I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

    Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?

    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.
    Which is more important to God? Prophecy? or Love?

    no
    Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

    In other words, was it a statement of fact? or was it a guess? Or was it a lie?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

      Argumentum ad nauseum

      Repeating your claim won't make it become true.
      maybe you could try to refute it but

      the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.


      Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

      I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.
      you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
      but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.



      That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

      Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

      Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

      Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.
      Hezekiah was going to die

      False dichotomy.

      God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

      God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

      Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result
      Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?
      God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
      Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
      had he not been told he would have died .
      you want the cart before the horse




      Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

      He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

      Who's putting the cart before the horse again?
      do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?

      do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?


      And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

      Don't do evil that good may come of it?
      God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!
      God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil ?

      God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil ?


      So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?
      does God know ?



      I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

      Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?
      you are trying to diminish God knows all things ( make God in mans image )
      by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things


      Argumentum ad nauseum

      Repeating your claim won't make it become true.
      so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far


      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
        maybe you could try to refute it but
        I have no obligation to refute a straw man used ad nauseum.

        Make an argument worth refuting and I will address it.

        the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

        . . .

        God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
        Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
        had he not been told he would have died .
        you want the cart before the horse

        . . .

        so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far
        I will not be responding to the above portions of your post, as they are simply you repeating your claims without supporting them after they have been addressed.

        you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
        You have yet to show how knowing the future is a requirement for God.

        but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes
        Because you say so?

        Are you claiming that God is incapable of accomplishing what He desires?

        because the open theist God
        God is the "open theist[sic] God"

        We're talking about the same God here, W2G.

        doesn't know the future.
        Thankfully, God is capable of bringing about the future He desires without needing to know the future.

        Hezekiah was going to die
        You say that, but according to your position, Hezekiah was not going to die for another 15 years.

        According to your position, Hezekiah was going to live, because God knew that he would pray to Him to spare his life, and God knew that because of that He would heal him.

        You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either Hezekiah was going to die, or God lied to him to get him to pray to God to heal him.

        Which is it, Way2Go? Because the latter turns God into a manipulative liar.

        do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?
        Huh?

        What kind of an out of left field question is that?

        The Bible says that God used Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he was going to die, and get his house in order, and in response to that, Hezekiah pleaded with God to heal him, and that it wasn't but moments later that God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would be healed.

        do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?
        God said that Hezekiah was going to die. What reason do you have to doubt Him?

        If God says something will come to pass, if circumstances do not change, will that something come to pass?

        God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil?
        It was if God knew about the wicked things Hezekiah would do when God would heal him, because it would make God into a facilitator of evil.

        Are you not aware of how arrogant Hezekiah became?

        God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil?
        lain:

        does God know?
        Know what?

        The point is that if Jesus is God (as you and I both believe He is), Jesus not knowing something precludes Him from woodenly literally knowing all things, because that's one thing He doesn't know.

        you are trying to diminish God knows all things
        No, I'm trying to get you to realize that "knows all things" does NOT mean omniscience.

        ( make God in mans image )
        This is a non-sequitur.

        And on the contrary, you're putting God in a box that says He must know everything, past, present, and future.

        Whereas the Bible says that God learns, grows in wisdom, is able to put away things from His memory and,

        by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things
        Man is incapable of woodenly literally knowing all things, even with the Holy Spirit's help.

        "All things," woodenly literally, are not knowable, because there are some things that are not knowable (for example, the number of hairs on the boogeyman's head).

        Therefore, "knows all things" must be a figure of speech that should not be taken woodenly literally, as you do.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

          you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
          but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
          Let me spell out what you have just said:
          "God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
          That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

          If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".




          Hezekiah was going to die

          God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life
          These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
          If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
          If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

          You are a closet Open Theist.

          Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.

          and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
          Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
          had he not been told he would have died .
          You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

          I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Derf View Post
            Let me spell out what you have just said:
            "God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
            That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

            If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".
            Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
            Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

            your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled


            God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
            and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish and they may or may not repent.

            Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
            Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.


            These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
            If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
            If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

            You are a closet Open Theist.

            Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.


            You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

            I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.
            post #9

            open theism teaches God guesses

            open theism accuses calvinism of having a god that is a stone idol
            while
            open theism has a god created in mans image

            sorry I do not agree with open theism or calvinism

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

              Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
              Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

              your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled


              God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
              and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish and they may or may not repent.

              Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
              Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.



              post #9

              open theism teaches God guesses

              open theism accuses calvinism of having a god that is a stone idol
              while
              open theism has a god created in mans image

              sorry I do not agree with open theism or calvinism
              You might not agree, but you're arguing against yourself at this point, as I described. You need to consider what you really do and don't believe. I'm not hung up on the name . If you don't want to be associated with the term "open theism", that's fine. But what you described is a changeable future, and I don't know what else to call it.

              Comment

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