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  • Theology Club: Salvation Down Through the Ages

    In order to understand exactly how people down through the ages have been saved let us look at the following words of Paul where he speaks of the gospel of grace:

    "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).

    Paul says that this righteousness of God which is apart from law is now being made known. Then he says that this righteousness of God comes to all who believe. This blessing is made possible because believers are "declared righeous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    Now let us look at what is in "bold" here:
    "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe..."

    Paul is saying that the truth of the believer receiving this imputed righteousness which is of God was revealed by him first but the Old Testament testifies that even in those times believers were also obtaining the imputed righteousness which is of God. And then Paul first uses Abraham as an example of believers who receive this blessing by faith:

    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-3).

    Then Paul moves on to David, who lived under the law:

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"
    (Ro.4:4-8).

    Next, Paul made it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles receive the same blessing in the same way:

    "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"
    (Ro.9-11).

    All believers down through history have received this blessedness which is apart from law or works. And then Paul makes it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles are saved by faith on the principle of grace:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

    If anyone wants to argue that those under the law could not be saved apart from works then they certainly do not understand that if salvation is of works then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace."
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; October 15th, 2018, 10:38 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In order to understand exactly how people down through the ages have been saved let us look at the following words of Paul where he speaks of the gospel of grace:
    Spoiler

    "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).

    Paul says that this righteousness of God which is apart from law is now being made known. Then he says that this righteousness of God comes to all who believe. This blessing is made possible because believers are "declared righeous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    Now let us look at what is in "bold" here:
    "And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, and this righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those who believe..."

    Paul is saying that the truth of the believer receiving this imputed righteousness which is of God was revealed by him first but the Old Testament testifies that even in those times believers were also obtaining the imputed righteousness which is of God. And then Paul first uses Abraham as an example of believers who receive this blessing by faith:

    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-3).

    Then Paul moves on to David, who lived under the law:

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"
    (Ro.4:4-8).

    Next, Paul made it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles receive the same blessing in the same way:

    "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"
    (Ro.9-11).

    All believers down through history have received this blessedness which is apart from law or works. And then Paul makes it plain that both the Jews and the Gentiles are saved by faith on the principle of grace:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).


    If anyone wants to argue that those under the law could not be saved apart from works then they certainly do not understand that if salvation is of works then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace."
    Maybe it's because obeying God's voice and commandments was required prior to the simple obedience of faith which the Gentiles enjoy.
    Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Romans 4:19-22 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
      Maybe it's because obeying God's voice and commandments was required prior to the simple obedience of faith which the Gentiles enjoy.

      Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
      The verse doesn't say that Abraham was saved because he obeyed. Besides that, we read that even before Abraham Noah received the imputed rightousness of God by his faith as well:

      "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith"
      (Heb.11:7).

      In addition to that, the following verse speaks of all the saved from the beginning of time so we can understand that no one was saved in any other way than by grace through faith:

      "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
      (Ro.4:16).

      Here Paul speaks of all those saved from the beginning of time (the Jews and the non-Jews) and according to him all of the saved were saved by grace through faith. That eliminates "works" because if works of any kind are necessary for anyone to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace."

      Comment


      • #4
        Define what "saved" and "salvation" means.

        What does it mean in this verse?

        1Pe 1:5 KJV Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

        or this one?

        Luk 1:71 KJV That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
        All of my ancestors are human.
        Originally posted by Squeaky
        That explains why your an idiot.
        Originally posted by God's Truth
        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          Define what "saved" and "salvation" means.
          It has more than one meaning. One speaks of the salvation of the soul (1 Pet.1:9). Another meaning is the salvation of a person physically. The following one speaks about the one which will happen at the rapture:

          "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"
          (Ro.13:11).

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          What does it mean in this verse?

          1Pe 1:5 KJV Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
          The same exact thing as Romans 3:11.
          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          or this one?

          Luk 1:71 KJV That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
          It means saved from things relating to to the temporal sphere.

          Now that I have answered all your questions please answer mine. What is the blessing of which Paul speaks of here and which comes unto the circumcised?:

          "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"
          (Ro.2:8).

          Hint: Paul speaks about this blessedness at Romans 4:6.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            It has more than one meaning. One speaks of the salvation of the soul (1 Pet.1:9). Another meaning is the salvation of a person physically. The following one speaks about the one which will happen at the rapture:

            "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"
            (Ro.13:11).

            The same exact thing as Romans 3:11.

            It means saved from things relating to to the temporal sphere.

            Now that I have answered all your questions please answer mine. What is the blessing of which Paul speaks of here and which comes unto the circumcised?:

            "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"
            (Ro.2:8).

            Hint: Paul speaks about this blessedness at Romans 4:6.
            Check your verse references, both Roman 3:11 (should be 13:11) and Romans 2:8 (should be 4:9) are incorrect.
            Rom 4:1-8 KJV What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

            Pretty easy to see that the "THIS blessedness" is.
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
              Pretty easy to see that the "THIS blessedness" is.
              Then tell us what it is:

              What is the blessing of which Paul speaks of here and which comes unto the circumcised?:

              "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"
              (Ro.4:9).

              Hint: Paul speaks about this blessedness at Romans 4:6 and he also applies that same blessedness to David, who lived under the law.

              Since you say it is easy to see what this blessedness is then tell us what blessedness it is that David received as well as the rest of the circumcised believers!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                Then tell us what it is:

                What is the blessing of which Paul speaks of here and which comes unto the circumcised?:

                "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"
                (Ro.4:9).

                Hint: Paul speaks about this blessedness at Romans 4:6 and he also applies that same blessedness to David, who lived under the law.

                Since you say it is easy to see what this blessedness is then tell us what blessedness it is that David received as well as the rest of the circumcised believers!
                Rom 4:6-8 KJV Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

                All of my ancestors are human.
                Originally posted by Squeaky
                That explains why your an idiot.
                Originally posted by God's Truth
                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  The verse doesn't say that Abraham was saved because he obeyed. Besides that, we read that even before Abraham Noah received the imputed rightousness of God by his faith as well:

                  "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith"
                  (Heb.11:7).

                  In addition to that, the following verse speaks of all the saved from the beginning of time so we can understand that no one was saved in any other way than by grace through faith:

                  "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
                  (Ro.4:16).

                  Here Paul speaks of all those saved from the beginning of time (the Jews and the non-Jews) and according to him all of the saved were saved by grace through faith. That eliminates "works" because if works of any kind are necessary for anyone to be saved then that salvation cannot be described as being of "grace."
                  My point was that Abraham had to obey first. Then he was given the promise and believed...being counted righteous at that time. Same with Noah.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                    My point was that Abraham had to obey first. Then he was given the promise and believed...being counted righteous at that time. Same with Noah.
                    His salvation was based on faith and faith alone no matter what happened previously. Do you disagree with that with Genesis 15:6 in view?

                    Here is how everyone's righteousness is defined and that kind of righteousness contributes NOTHING to anyone's salvation:
                    "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.40:6).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      His salvation was based on faith and faith alone no matter what happened previously. Do you disagree with that with Genesis 15:6 in view?

                      Here is how everyone's righteousness is defined and that kind of righteousness contributes NOTHING to anyone's salvation:
                      "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.40:6).
                      No, I'm not saying Abraham was saved by his obedience. Just that it was required before the cross and the gospel of grace.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                        No, I'm not saying Abraham was saved by his obedience.
                        Thanks! Do you agree with me that through out history everyone who has been saved has been saved by grace through faith apart from any kind of works?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                          Thanks! Do you agree with me that through out history everyone who has been saved has been saved by grace through faith apart from any kind of works?
                          Saved as in given eternal life? I would say yes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                            Saved as in given eternal life? I would say yes.
                            Great!

                            Comment

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