Theology Club: Mid-Acts in 300 AD

Danoh

New member
You will not get any credibility to your movement by linking it with the Paulicans which were a splinter group which by all accounts was heretical. If you want to establish the antiquity and orthodoxy of MAD you have to show that the Greek Fathers believed it. This means starting with Ignatius in the First Century and going on as far as John Chrysostom but avoiding the polluted teachings generated by Augustine. The Paulicans were not the first Paul only group. The Marcionites were Paul only and had a canon of Paul only books. They were considered heretical and their Bible an aberration. Don't make claims to antiquity you cannot substantiate.

They only claim made is that they appeared to have held to some views similar to our own.

And this is said, only as a passing thought on what they had had to deal with from their enemies, as that also shares some things in common with our own experience from others.

You trace your tradition back through the ECF. That's understandable. That's what people do when they have questions.

Doesn't mean it is sound, or unsound; as it has its merits.

I tried all that; in an attempt to understand my Bible. Learned a thing or two along the way...

Then I sat down and seriously asked myself "wait a minute; why do I have a Bible if I need all those books!"

Do I expect you to understand this if yours has been the more traditional approach? No; that's on you - "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" Rom. 14:23.

But this difference is one that your side of the fence always has issue with.

In fact, those on our side of the fence who are ever quoting the labors of others also often have problems with us.

There comes a time when one must role up one's own sleeves on these issues and get - in - that - Book.

Even then, far too many come at it with all those books as their guide to the Book.

That's just backwards to many of us.
 

Danoh

New member
I debated him for a long time a few years back. He is relentless and never gives an inch. At the same time he will listen and respond intelligently - as much as anyone around here does. No one is perfectly rational when dealing with beliefs they are emotionally invested in.

What I do not like is ad hominem attacks. Another thing I don't like is people who sit on the sidelines heckling and shooting off one-liners while refusing to engage. I usually avoid people who have a bitter rancorous spirit because they sometimes upset me. You and I disagree on probably more issues than you are aware but since you are cordial I feel I can talk to you.

And I am cordial until my own are attacked - be they Acts 9 Dispensationalists, or not.

Especially when it is my sisters in the Lord.

Note how Jerry mistreats Tambora and Glorydaz and heir. Well, I'll have none of it from that blow hard bully. We ought to be grateful we even have that many females who care about these issues more than most.

If you have a problem with that, well, then you will have a problem with that. I'm fine with that; just don't go there, or back under the Law you will find yourself, with me, lol
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
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And I am cordial until my own are attacked - be they Acts 9 Dispensationalists, or not.

Especially when it is my sisters in the Lord.

Note how Jerry mistreats Tambora and Glorydaz and heir. Well, I'll have none of it from that blow hard bully. We ought to be grateful we even have that many females who care about these issues more than most.

If you have a problem with that, well, then you will have a problem with that. I'm fine with that; just don't go there, or back under the Law you will find yourself, with me, lol
Thank you, Danoh. As a woman, I actually expect men to protect me, treat me tenderly, and have patience with me while studying scripture together.
And I really appreciate the men on this site that do.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I was going to say that the quote of Anderson sounds similar to the Acts 28 position.

His words here make it plain that he taught Mid-Acts Dispensationalism:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation had begun..." (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], p.49).​

Can you see that?
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
His words here make it plain that he taught Mid-Acts Dispensationalism:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation had begun..." (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], p.49).​

Can you see that?

no. what was the NEW dispensation in the latter Acts chapters ?
 

Danoh

New member
I was going to say that the quote of Anderson sounds similar to the Acts 28 position.

Read Anderson's "The Silence of God." You literally have to read an Acts 13 or 9 or what have you position into what are still many Acts 28 like conclusions in his "Mid-Acts."

Anderson does not appear to have been Acts 28, in the end, but had still held to many of their conclusions, as he had not gone as far as O'Hair had been able to.

O'Hair had Baker and Stam - and even the average person - challenging him all the time; both of whom had been way stronger in the understanding of some things.

O'Hair had been a very rare individual even more the rest of them in this.

He had been far more willing to concede the verses; when he finally saw them for what they were actually asserting, then, say, Stam had been. Baker had largely focused on the academia.

Each had their strengths and their weaknesses.

What one sees in all this, is men searching an searching, and seeing a great deal on the one hand, as a result.

On the other, just as often having been men having to be made aware of a thing by some external tap on their shoulder, and then just as often having needed to be challenged to at least consider it.

All this is good; because it reveals they had not simply made things up, or read things into things, as far too many have, and have continued to assert abut those great men.

While, it is "bad," if this can be called "bad," only in that it also reveals that unless they had seen some thing, or some one came along to challenge them to at least think on some new assertion, they at times remained in the dark about some things that only more years in all this and by men who would come after them, would have further time on this earth, to study out.

Bottom line though, is that we are not where we are without them.

We simply are not.

Even the greatest of those who have come after them repeatedly says as much.

But were they the last word?

No.

They could not be. There was just too much to put together, coupled with too much in the way, for their generation to have reached a place where the right, resulting gel factor would then allow the rest to fall into place.

That is the case in every science on this planet - we are still uncovering the possibilities of things that only prior uncoverings first can then allow the seeing of.

Larkin's Mountain View of Prophecy Principle.

Its best in all this, to have O'Hair's great love - his apparent love of "you're right; I should look into that - I must, and will.... hey, you know what, brother; you're right! Thanks for that!"

And that, when it was not, "no, I don't see that; I'll have to keep studying things out..."

You'd think someone who sings his praises to the extent that Jerry asserts he does, would follow the man's example in this.

Instead, his is an old fossil of understandings (if even that much, in his case) long ago soundly challenged and moved on from...

His problem is that he is unable to see what is in front of him because he has not put in the right kind of time that would have allowed him being where he needs to be if he is to see these things to begin with.

A caveman, thrown off by a time traveler's flicking of a lighter because the understanding in between is a long ways off from where that caveman needs to be.

The guy is like one of those World War Two Japanese fighters found out in the jungles of the Philippians somewhere, some forty years after that war, still thinking the war is still being waged.
 

Danoh

New member
His words here make it plain that he taught Mid-Acts Dispensationalism:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation had begun..." (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], p.49).​

Can you see that?

No. He can't. Because he read what you left out that I posted.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
His words here make it plain that he taught Mid-Acts Dispensationalism:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation had begun..." (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], p.49).​

Can you see that?

So when a "respected" Bible teacher observes what they perceive to be a "significant change" in history they have the right to declare it a "dispensation?" In that case perhaps the period of the Early Church Father's should be granted a dispensation also or maybe the many years when the Catholic Church reigned supreme. I am sure some imaginative Bible teacher could make use of the 7 Churches in the Revelation to devise a nomenclature for these different "dispensations." In fact, as I recall someone did.

Much of the time, which epochs of time can be considered "dispensations" cannot be determined from from what the Biblical writers themselves say. Labeling periods of time is the passtime of people who live hundreds or even thousands of years after the historical events. Unless some rule WITHIN the scriptures is guiding our judgement what we call "dispensations" could be nothing more than extra-Biblical constructs
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So when a "respected" Bible teacher observes what they perceive to be a "significant change" in history they have the right to declare it a "dispensation?"

No, it is in regard to seeing a new stewardship come into being. Let us look at what Paul said about a stewardship (dispensation) relationship which was given to him by the Lord:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

From this we can know that the present dispensation did not begin until someone began to exercise this dispensation responsibility, and that did not happen until Paul preached that gospel during the Mid-Acts period.

Much of the time, which epochs of time can be considered "dispensations" cannot be determined from from what the Biblical writers themselves say.

The Biblical Dispensations are not "epochs" but instead "stewardships." Although they cover periods of time they themselves are not epochs. That is the first thing which a person needs to know in order to have a correct understanding of the basic Biblical dispensational arrangements found in the Bible.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Where is your internal exegetical evidence for a change in "stewardship" "Inferencing" will not suffice because I do not accept your premise. I am a firm believer that truth must come ultimately come from proper exegesis of the words of scripture. "The words of the Lord are pure words as silver tried in a furnace of earth seven times."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Where is your internal exegetical evidence for a change in "stewardship"? "Inferencing" will not suffice because I do not accept your premise. I am a firm believer that truth must come ultimately come from proper exegesis of the words of scripture.

When Paul taught the revelations found in His Scriptures the method he used was to "reason" out of those Scriptures. And that is exactly what the method which I will use which proves a change in stewardship.

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).​

At the time when the Christ walked the earth He said that "salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22). The Jews were to be the Lord's stewards to bring the knowledge of the LORD to the world (Mt.5:14). But since the nation did not recognize her promised Messiah that nation was temporarily cast aside as the Lord's steward to bring the whole world to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus (Rom.11:15).

Later, when Paul was converted he was given a stewardship responsibility to the Gentiles and was appointed as the apostle to the Gentile. He was also given a new revelation to preach to the Gentiles (Gal.1:16). Preaching that gospel to the Gentiles was his stewardship (dispensational) responsibility. Since a new stewardship does not begin until the stewardship responsibility is exercised then it becomes obvious that the present dispensation did not begin until Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.

So this proves a stewardship change from the previous stewardship given to the Jewish believers at Acts 1:8:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).​

None of those who originally received this stewardship preached in the uttermost part of the earth.

Let us look at this stewardship responsibility which was given to Paul:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

This stewardship responsibility was not given to anyone before Paul, as witnessed by his words here:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

If someone previous to Paul had been preaching that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" then Paul wouldn't say that "now" the righteousness of God without the law is made known.

This shows that Paul's stewardship to preach the gospel of grace represented a new stewardship. And Paul's words here make the same point:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known..." (Ro.16:25-26).​

Besides that, the Scriptures will be searched in vain for evidence that anyone before Paul preached the gospel of grace.

I do not accept your premise.

What premise is that?
 
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Shasta

Well-known member
When Paul taught the revelations found in His Scriptures the method he used was to "reason" out of those Scriptures. And that is exactly what the method which I will use which proves a change in stewardship.

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).​

At the time when the Christ walked the earth He said that "salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22). The Jews were to be the Lord's stewards to bring the knowledge of the LORD to the world (Mt.5:14). But since the nation did not recognize her promised Messiah that nation was temporarily cast aside as the Lord's steward to bring the whole world to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus (Rom.11:15).

Later, when Paul was converted he was given a stewardship responsibility to the Gentiles and was appointed as the apostle to the Gentile. He was also given a new revelation to preach to the Gentiles (Gal.1:16). Preaching that gospel to the Gentiles was his stewardship (dispensational) responsibility. Since a new stewardship does not begin until the stewardship responsibility is exercised then it becomes obvious that the present dispensation did not begin until Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles.

So this proves a stewardship change from the previous stewardship given to the Jewish believers at Acts 1:8:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).​

None of those who originally received this stewardship preached in the uttermost part of the earth.

Let us look at this stewardship responsibility which was given to Paul:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

This stewardship responsibility was not given to anyone before Paul, as witnessed by his words here:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

If someone previous to Paul had been preaching that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" then Paul wouldn't say that "now" the righteousness of God without the law is made known.

This shows that Paul's stewardship to preach the gospel of grace represented a new stewardship. And Paul's words here make the same point:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known..." (Ro.16:25-26).​

Besides that, the Scriptures will be searched in vain for evidence that anyone before Paul preached the gospel of grace.



What premise is that?

I do not believe in MAD at all. You can say it is a product of reasoning but if it cannot b found in the scriptures then it is an extra-Biblical construct no matter how reasonable it sounds. I think all doctrines must be build from the foundation up through exegetical work in the text. All too often proponents of MAD want to bring in their broad construct but when I look into individual passages their case evaporates.

I think it is obvious that Paul was called to take the gospel to the Gentile nations and that this was a stage in the unfolding plan. He called it a "dispensation" because in the management of God's project that was his area of function. Of course men like Barnabas and Apollos were involved as well.

What I want to know is what you think happened midway through the book of Acts and how that differs from the position of the "neo-MAD" faction.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I do not believe in MAD at all.

When do you think that the present dispensation of grace began? And please tell me where that beginning is found in the Scriptures.

If we are to know what iour stewardship responsibility is during the present time then we should at least be able to determine when this dispensation began. Otherwise, we may be following the wrong commission. These two verses gives us a hint as to what that responsibility is:

"Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms" (1 Pet.4:10).​

"This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God" (1 Cor.4:1).​

If this is our stewardship responsibility then how can we be stewards of the mysteries of God unless we preach this?:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known" (Ro.16:25-26).​

You can say it is a product of reasoning but if it cannot be found in the scriptures then it is an extra-Biblical construct no matter how reasonable it sounds.

As far as I can see you did not demonstrate that anything I said is an extra-Biblical construct.

I think all doctrines must be build from the foundation up through exegetical work in the text. All too often proponents of MAD want to bring in their broad construct but when I look into individual passages their case evaporates.

Do you think that Paul was in error when he "reasoned out of the Scriptures"?

I say that if it was good enough for him then it is good enough for me. Of course if you think that I used any verse in a wrong sense then we can discuss the true meaning of that verse.

What particular passage which I quoted when I reasoned out of the Bible caused my case to evaporate?

What I want to know is what you think happened midway through the book of Acts and how that differs from the position of the "neo-MAD" faction.

As I said earlier, the stewardship responsibility given to Paul was to preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles so the present dispensation did not begin until Acts 13.

Those in the Neo-MAD camp say that Paul was the first person to be saved by grace and that happened at Acts 9. Therefore, according to them, the dispensation of grace began at Acts 9 when Peter was saved by grace..

However, a "stewardship" is in regard to "service" and not to "salvation."

I will look forward to knowing where you place the beginning of the present dispensation and where that beginning can be found in the Scriptures.

Thanks!
 
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