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  • Theology Club: Why MAD Doesn't Work

    It's a chronology problem.

    Mid Acts Dispensationalism takes its primary understanding from the salvation of Gentiles....from mid-way through Acts....obviously.

    The problem with that is that Luke recorded the works (and words) of Acts as they occurred in Paul's first and second missionary journey's.

    Of course, that is not where the works of Paul stopped. Paul continued writing doctrine to these churches, many of which he himself established, much after his missionary journey's were completed. And even, right up until the time of his death. 2 Timothy 4:6

    Therefore, any fundamental doctrines....such as the suspension of prophecy would have been recorded in the Epistles to these churches.

    They are not. At least as far as I can tell.

    In fact, it sure seems to me that the opposite is true. Paul continues to write as if the Day of the Lord is at hand, or could be at hand at any moment.

    TBC

  • #2
    In fact, at last count.....I've found about eight or so places in the New Testament where the Apostles are assuming that the Day of the Lord could occur at any time.....the time of the end is near.....etc.

    And this includes Paul - and also the writer of Hebrews if they are one and the same.

    Strangely, I can find no mention of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem at all.....with of course the exception being Christ's own prophecy....and that is weird if some of the books, like John's epistles were written after 70 AD as assumed by most.

    TBC

    Comment


    • #3
      Anyway, I'm open to have anyone who wishes to correct my understanding bring it....

      But in a nutshell....it's pretty clear to me that prophecy has been suspended....because the only other option would be to believe that the entire Bible is false.

      I don't believe that.

      So, whatever the reason for it...the times of the Gentiles is not a good explanation....IMO....but the salvation of Gentiles may be...however, even that was not left out of prophecy beforehand.

      Anyway, I don't know the reason why prophecy was suspended, how that even works, and what the current place of prophecy and end times is at this point.... But whatever the reason, I don't believe that Mid Acts Dispensationalism as I understand it can adequately address the point.

      Of course, I could be wrong.

      Comment


      • #4
        Of course, there is another possible explanation for the problem, and not one that I've ever heard anyone even mention...

        That is, the New Testament is incomplete because many of the words written by Gods holy apostles were destroyed in the persecutions of Nero and Diocletian.

        Comment


        • #5
          And of course, it is possible that there are other explanations that I am not aware of.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
            It's a chronology problem.
            I don't see how.

            In fact, it sure seems to me that the opposite is true. Paul continues to write as if the Day of the Lord is at hand, or could be at hand at any moment.

            TBC
            That proves what we are saying. So where is he? Israel was put away and gentiles were raised up. Romans 11:11

            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
            Strangely, I can find no mention of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem at all.....with of course the exception being Christ's own prophecy....and that is weird if some of the books, like John's epistles were written after 70 AD as assumed by most.

            TBC
            The authors would have mentioned it showing how the Lord Jesus Christ said it was coming. All of the Bible writings were before 70 AD. It is clear they are excluded from being after that date.
            Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

            Titus 1

            For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

            Ephesians 5

            11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

            Comment


            • #7
              Paul wrote that prophecy is a spiritual gift. Revelations is prophecy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Why are Paul's letters squezed between Acts, and Hebrews? Why is Paul looking back on salvation, and all others are looking forward to it? Why are letters after Paul looking forward to salvation after he has revealed it is already here?

                Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
                Paul wrote that prophecy is a spiritual gift. Revelations is prophecy.
                Yeah, and?
                Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                Titus 1

                For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                Ephesians 5

                11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                  Anyway, I'm open to have anyone who wishes to correct my understanding bring it....

                  But in a nutshell....it's pretty clear to me that prophecy has been suspended....because the only other option would be to believe that the entire Bible is false.

                  I don't believe that.

                  So, whatever the reason for it...the times of the Gentiles is not a good explanation....IMO....but the salvation of Gentiles may be...however, even that was not left out of prophecy beforehand.

                  Anyway, I don't know the reason why prophecy was suspended, how that even works, and what the current place of prophecy and end times is at this point.... But whatever the reason, I don't believe that Mid Acts Dispensationalism as I understand it can adequately address the point.

                  Of course, I could be wrong.

                  Hi , " of course , I could be wrong " and you are wrong , and you are covering your rear end by sayin " I could be wrong " !!

                  The Prophetic clock stopped when Israel was set aside , Acts 13:46 ; 18:6 and 28:28 showing why !!

                  Then God raised up another apostle , preaching the Dispensation of the Grace of God in 1 Cor 9:17 !!

                  Paul had many Revelations as scripture shows and a Prophetic one is in Rom 11:25 that Blindness in part is happened to Israel , " Until the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " !!!

                  Then in verse 26 Israel will be saved !!

                  John , I believe was written very early as 1 Cor 15:4 reveals " He rose again the THIRD DAY !!

                  There is internal evidence that this was already Known in Matt 16:21 ;17:23 ; Mark 9:31 ; 10:34 ; and in Luke 9:22 ; 24:7 , 21 , 46 !!

                  Acts 2 , has been postponed until the 7 year Tribulation !!


                  What you have written is MOOT as the Choronology Problem is with Acts 2 and its baggage of Water Baptism , speaking in Tongues and have remained Enemines of the Cross of Christ , Phil 3:17-19 , which is a Warning to those that denigrate the Apostle of Grace , Paul !!

                  dan p
                  Last edited by DAN P; May 15th, 2013, 10:14 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                    Why are Paul's letters squezed between Acts, and Hebrews? Why is Paul looking back on salvation, and all others are looking forward to it? Why are letters after Paul looking forward to salvation after he has revealed it is already here?



                    Yeah, and?
                    Why are Paul's letters squezed between Acts, and Hebrews? ???



                    Why is Paul looking back on salvation, and all others are looking forward to it? Paul is preaching to the Gentiles and offering them salvation. Therefore Paul needs to show them where salvation comes from. Also he is also admonishing his churches that they continue to live as Christians and be ready for the Lord's coming.

                    Yeah, and? Prophecy is now and in the future. The end will come as a thief in the night. All Christians need to be ready for it now. For they will stand before the Judgement seat first.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                      Anyway, I'm open to have anyone who wishes to correct my understanding bring it....

                      But in a nutshell....it's pretty clear to me that prophecy has been suspended....because the only other option would be to believe that the entire Bible is false.

                      I don't believe that.

                      So, whatever the reason for it...the times of the Gentiles is not a good explanation....IMO....but the salvation of Gentiles may be...however, even that was not left out of prophecy beforehand.

                      Anyway, I don't know the reason why prophecy was suspended, how that even works, and what the current place of prophecy and end times is at this point.... But whatever the reason, I don't believe that Mid Acts Dispensationalism as I understand it can adequately address the point.

                      Of course, I could be wrong.
                      Prophecy as with all the other gifts are locked up in the pew...in YOU.

                      In Paul's assembly everyone participated, one had a psalm another an exhortation, another a word of wisdom, another knowledge...another had a message in tongues, another interpretation. Another ministered in healing or miracles.

                      This is the body of Christ as Paul set it up. Today we go to hear a sermon, prays some prayers, sing some hymns...take a collection.

                      In short the manifold wisdom of God cannot be made known to the principality and powers in the heavenly places by one minister [and perhaps an assistant] if he is a good preacher some of God's wisdom can be made known.
                      One lavished upon in the Beloved
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
                        Paul is preaching to the Gentiles and offering them salvation.
                        Apart from Israel. That is the point.

                        Prophecy is now and in the future.
                        Prove it. Name one event, just one. Name one healing where they laid hands on the maimed and he was healed. Just one.

                        All Christians need to be ready for it now.
                        Everybody in the Body of Christ is ready, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, holy and blameless.

                        For they will stand before the Judgement seat first.
                        Nope. We are well known. You will stand before him because you want to be judged on your works. Don't worry, you will be.
                        Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                        Titus 1

                        For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                        Ephesians 5

                        11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There is the Gospel to the Jew and the Gospel to the Gentile. That is the purpose of MAD;

                          Galatians 2:7-8

                          King James Version (KJV)

                          7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

                          8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
                          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                          Jim Elliot

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
                            Prophecy as with all the other gifts are locked up in the pew...in YOU.

                            In Paul's assembly everyone participated, one had a psalm another an exhortation, another a word of wisdom, another knowledge...another had a message in tongues, another interpretation. Another ministered in healing or miracles.

                            This is the body of Christ as Paul set it up. Today we go to hear a sermon, prays some prayers, sing some hymns...take a collection.

                            In short the manifold wisdom of God cannot be made known to the principality and powers in the heavenly places by one minister [and perhaps an assistant] if he is a good preacher some of God's wisdom can be made known.
                            Not all churches are one man led....nor should they be. I've never really attended any church that wasn't elder led, and there wasn't much leading at that. What you're talking about, and rightly so, is the priesthood of the believer. Prophecy is more than telling the future, it's speaking the words of God.....it is understanding the written Word and sharing that with the body. So I'm wondering what prophecies cease?

                            Acts 13:1
                            Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

                            Acts 15:32
                            And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.




                            Is this what everyone is talking about when they say prophecies fail or cease? If so, then why is any time line involved? The people in Corinth were putting too much emphasis on their spiritual gifts and Paul was telling them the only thing that never fails is love.


                            1 Corinthians 13:8
                            Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                              There is the Gospel to the Jew and the Gospel to the Gentile. That is the purpose of MAD;

                              Galatians 2:7-8

                              King James Version (KJV)

                              7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

                              8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
                              So, what's the difference?

                              Comment

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