Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[Jerry Shugart]

I know what He said to them. He told them they had to endure to the end to be saved.

I already explained the meaning of that vere and it is speaking of physical deliverance.

But you keep running and hiding from what He said at John 5:24 to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The Lord Jesus also said this to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

For some reason you just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the Law.

Your beliefs are a flat out denial of these words of the Lord Jesus but you could care less!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are the one wanting Peter in the one Body, but no one enters the Body WITHOUT trusting the Lord for salvation believing the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Peter's not in the Body. He's OUT.

Of course Peter believed the "good news" of Christ. Where dod you ever get the idea that he didn't? Now let us look at Apollos, who at one time was "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).​

Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking about the Jews and Gentiles being made "one" and reconciled in one Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would say that both he and Apollos were "one" but yet they were not "one" because Paul belongs within the Body of Christ but Apollos did not.

But you have proven that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous. You just IGNORE the verses which do not agree woth your discredited ideas.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Question: How can the twelve be in the Body of Christ when they haven't received their day of atonement yet as those in the Body NOW have?

Are you under the impression that individual Jews have not received the benefits of the atonement, even though the lord Jesus said the following to the woman who had anointed His feet with oil:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Are we supposed to believe that Peter had not received the benefits which flow from the atonement, especially since he said the following?:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

According to your mistaken ideas Peter and the rest of the Jewish believers had not yet received the benefits of the atonement but yet they were given the Holy Ghost!

 

[heir]

Jerry wants so desperately for Peter and the boys to be in the one Body, but they're clearly not. No trusting the Lord for salvation believing the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), no entry into the Body. Simple.

He can post all he wants, but he cannot get around this FACT.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you think the KJV plopped strait out of heaven in Elizabethan English straight onto the desk of King James?

Could God do it if he wanted to?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry wants so desperately for Peter and the boys to be in the one Body, but they're clearly not. No trusting the Lord for salvation believing the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), no entry into the Body. Simple.

He can post all he wants, but he cannot get around this FACT.

Indeed, sister.

It makes no sense that the Lord would teach and train the Twelve for three years regarding their mission and doctrine....and, then, shortly after Pentecost say "nevermind".

 

[heir]

Indeed, sister.

It makes no sense that the Lord would teach and train the Twelve for three years regarding their mission and doctrine....and, then, shortly after Pentecost say "nevermind".

It sure doesn't especially since they'll have a job to do as a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9 KJV)!

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Shasta]

:mock: those who rely on the word of men

Are you arguing for a divine endorsement of the Greek manuscript which was the basis for the King James Version (the Textus Receptus) or are you arguing for the the verbal, plenary inspiration of the KJV itself, that it accurately, infallibly, and always renders the ideas expressed in the original languages in the English language?

 

[Dialogos]

Could God do it if he wanted to?

Yup.

God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants to. But what God can do and what God has done are two different things.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It makes no sense that the Lord would teach and train the Twelve for three years regarding their mission and doctrine....and, then, shortly after Pentecost say "nevermind".

Maybe it makes no sense to you but you fail to understand that the "mission" of which you speak depended on the nation of Israel accepting the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. The following verse refers to the "mission" of the nation of Israel:

"Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3-5).​

The "mission" of the Apostles to go into the world and preach the gospel of the kingdom depended on the nation of Israel being glorified. And when the nation refused to accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah then the Lord set them aside and began a new program in regard to the Gentiles and Paul was appointed as the apostle of the Gentiles.

The Jewish believers received a new commission and that commission was to preach the gospel which was centered on the purpose of the death of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

That is exactly the same gospel message which Paul preached:

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph.1:6-7).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yup.

God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants to. But what God can do and what God has done are two different things.

Ok. Did God promise to preserve his pure words?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Maybe it makes no sense to you but you fail to understand that the "mission" of which you speak depended on the nation of Israel accepting the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. The following verse refers to the "mission" of the nation of Israel:

"Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee" (Isa.55:3-5).​

The "mission" of the Apostles to go into the world and preach the gospel of the kingdom depended on the nation of Israel being glorified. And when the nation refused to accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah then the Lord set them aside and began a new program in regard to the Gentiles and Paul was appointed as the apostle of the Gentiles.

The Jewish believers received a new commission and that commission was to preach the gospel which was centered on the purpose of the death of the Lord Jesus:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

That is exactly the same gospel message which Paul preached:

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph.1:6-7).​

The twelve's mission never changed, that I can see in scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The twelve's mission never changed, that I can see in scripture.

You just IGNORED what I said and then you make an assertion which is backed up by nothing other than you say that it is true. Let us look at what is said about Apollos, who began under the commission of the kingdom program:

Now let us look at Apollos, who at one time was "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

At one time he was teaching according to the commission under the kingdom program.

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).​

Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking about the Jews and Gentiles being made "one" and reconciled in one Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would say that both he and Apollos were "one" but yet they were not "one" because Paul belongs within the Body of Christ but Apollos did not.

Of course all of the believers living in the first century were members of the Body of Christ and werefollowing the commission to preach a gospel centered on the "purpose" of the Cross.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You just IGNORED what I said

I didn't, I just don't see a change in their mission from what you wrote.

 

[Dialogos]

Ok. Did God promise to preserve his pure words?

What makes you think the Kjv is the pure word, where the other translations are corrupt?

If you actually knew the history of the kjv, you wouldn't come to such a silly conclusion.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What makes you think the Kjv is the pure word, where the other translations are corrupt?

If you actually knew the history of the kjv, you wouldn't come to such a silly conclusion.

Doesn't matter what I think, right now.

Ok. Did God promise to preserve his pure words?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I didn't, I just don't see a change in their mission from what you wrote.

What about Barnabas? He obviously was saved by believing the gospel of the circumcision and at Acts 4:37 we can see that he sold his land and gave the money from that sale to the Apostles. So Barnabas was under the same commission then as were the Apostles.

But later we see that he was given a ministry to the Gentiles:

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.2:9).​

Of course when Barnabas went to the Gentiles he preached the gospel of the uncircumcision to them and not the "gospel of the kingdom."

 

[Dialogos]

Ok. Did God promise to preserve his pure words?

Yes, but the KJV is not the most faithful translation of those pure words nor are the manuscripts that underlie the KJV the most reliable version of those pure words. In fact, some passages in the KJV are made up, they aren't translations of any Greek manuscripts whatsoever.

Is that how you think God preserved His pure words? By making up passages?

 

[godrulz]

Peter did NOT preach that "Christ died for our sins" in Acts 2.

I cannot see how you say this. Peter knew about the death and resurrection of Christ. There is no true gospel apart from this finished work that predates Acts 2, 9, etc.

 

[godrulz]

Repentance and Baptism.

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The problem is your exegesis/application (cf. UPCI sect), not Acts 2 disp.