Theology Club: Is MAD doctrine correct?

[heir]

Compared to the body of Christ which must also endure in faith to the end (1 Cor 15:2)?

That is not an endure to the end message to be saved!


1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Believing in vain had everything to do with NOT believing that there was resurrection of the dead. If they didn't believe there was resurrection of the dead then they obviously would not have believed that Christ was raised from the dead. There were some at Corinth whose faith was in vain. It's clear from the scripture.


1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


The good news, is that Christ is risen from the dead!


1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


He was raised again for our justification!


Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Dialogos]

And not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

AMEN HALLELUJAH!

Nick, I'm a monergist. I think the whole package is from God.

Nevertheless, even we monergists believe that without faith it is impossible to please God which is why we believe in the P in TULIP.

All true saints persevere in faith to the end and both Peter and Paul testify to this truth.

As Saint John W the Great would say.... you are clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why.

:rotfl:

Saint John W...

:rotfl:

If "can you dig it?" is the most theologically astute pronouncement around here then TOL is in real trouble.

TOL used to have to some MAD "great ones" who could actually carry on an informed dialog.

Jeremy Finkenbinder, Turbo, Bob Hill, etc...

:sigh:

 

[Dialogos]

That is not an endure to the end message to be saved!

Heir, I don't know how you can make this statement and then go on to put that passage in context so beautifully. It is absolutely true that we do not earn our salvation through our perseverance, but it is just as true that those who have a genuine, saving faith will persevere.

1 Cor 15:1-9 is indeed Paul's synopsis of the gospel. And you are absolutely correct that 1 Cor 15:2 is about persevering in one's faith in the resurrection of Christ.

Paul also pointed out that they had, in fact, believed his gospel (1 Cor 15:11) but that some had proven that their faith was in vain by believing there was no resurrection from the dead (1 Cor 15:12).

The need for perseverance is why Paul says the following to the truly regenerate among the Corinthians.

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.​

A genuine experience of regeneration by the Holy Spirit of God always does produce a steadfast faith.

God ALWAYS finishes the work He begins (Phil 1:6). But for those whose faith is proven to be merely the work of man's hobbled will, their lack of perseverance is a demonstration of the vanity of their faith.

Believing in vain had everything to do with NOT believing that there was resurrection of the dead. If they didn't believe there was resurrection of the dead then they obviously would not have believed that Christ was raised from the dead. There were some at Corinth whose faith was in vain. It's clear from the scripture.

Well said.
If they did not persevere in their belief in the resurrection then they would demonstrate that their faith was not a genuine faith.

The good news, is that Christ is risen from the dead!

Amen!

That is, indeed good news.

Heir, I pray that today this good news will fill you with all joy as we both give thanks to the victory we have in the cross of Christ knowing that our labor is not in vain.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you are arguing that there are two gospels of God now?

The "good news" or gospel which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period is the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And those who believed that gospel were saved when they believed it (John 20:31; 1 Jn.5:1-5).

The "good news" or gospel which was preached to the Gentiles concerned the "purpose" of the Lord Jesus' death--that He died for our sins. And those who believe that are saved the moment when they believe (1 Cor.15:1-3).

 

[Lighthouse]

:nono:

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 ESV)​

​

So you're not one of those people who think Paul wrote Hebrews?
Interesting, though, that you chose a verse stating they are not yet sanctified.:think:

Peter was reminding them of their past sins being forgiven not proclaiming that their future sins were not.

Did Peter tell them their future sins were forgiven?

Christians have their past sins forgiven, that doesn't mean that our future sins are not also forgiven.

In this dispensation all our sin is forgiven; having been nailed to the cross.

You don't have to work at being annoying Lighthouse and your being a heretic doesn't really affect me, but it sure does you.

I never said it wasn't easy. And you've yet to prove me heretical.

 

[intojoy]

Repentance and Baptism.

Acts 2:38 King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repent - change their mind

Change their mind - from Yeshua not being their Messiah (Matthew 12) to Yeshua is their Messiah

Baptism = identification

Jewish meaning -

Change your mind on who Yeshua is and identify with His movement by baptism.

 

[intojoy]

[/INDENT]So you're not one of those people who think Paul wrote Hebrews?
Interesting, though, that you chose a verse stating they are not yet sanctified.:think:


Did Peter tell them their future sins were forgiven?


In this dispensation all our sin is forgiven; having been nailed to the cross.


I never said it wasn't easy. And you've yet to prove me heretical.

The writer of Hebrews eliminates himself from being an apostle who had seen the resurrected Christ and identified himself as a second tier apostle.

Paul was an apostle of the first order having seen the resurrected Christ thus the writer of Hebrews cannot be Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The writer of Hebrews eliminates himself from being an apostle who had seen the resurrected Christ and identified himself as a second tier apostle..

Where?

 

[Nick M]

Where?

Hebrews 2

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

This absolutely eliminates Paul from writing it. And what is strange is why some would even offer that up. Unless they want to pervert the gospel. A favorite thing from godrulz is commentary. And one I have seen makes sense. It was a companion/second tier leadership from the 12.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This absolutely eliminates Paul from writing it. And what is strange is why some would even offer that up. Unless they want to pervert the gospel.

I cannot see how that eliminates Paul from being the author of the book of Hebrews.

After all, did not Paul write a letter to the Hebrew believers. Here is what Peter said about that:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you" (2 Pet.3:15).​

If the book of Hebrews is not that which was written to the Hebrew believers then where do we find what Paul wrote to them?

 

[Lighthouse]

The writer of Hebrews eliminates himself from being an apostle who had seen the resurrected Christ and identified himself as a second tier apostle.

Paul was an apostle of the first order having seen the resurrected Christ thus the writer of Hebrews cannot be Paul

I was just asking Dialogos, because many people who argue against MAD seem to believe Paul wrote Hebrews. I already knew he did not.

 

[heir]

Heir, I don't know how you can make this statement and then go on to put that passage in context so beautifully.

Those at Corinth who "are saved" were those who believe all the components of the gospel of Christ that Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. Those who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead didn't believe that Christ was risen from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:12 KJV).

As we can see from the scripture, the belief in the resurrection of Christ is essential to salvation (1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV)! The "some" at Corinth were not saved to begin with. They did not believe all of the components of the gospel of Christ to begin with. They believed in vain.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As we can see from the scripture, the belief in the resurrection of Christ is essential to salvation (1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV)!

What about those who are born of God when they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

 

[intojoy]

I cannot see how that eliminates Paul from being the author of the book of Hebrews.

After all, did not Paul write a letter to the Hebrew believers. Here is what Peter said about that:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you" (2 Pet.3:15).​

If the book of Hebrews is not that which was written to the Hebrew believers then where do we find what Paul wrote to them?

Paul was not sent to the Hebrews bro

 

[intojoy]

I was just asking Dialogos, because many people who argue against MAD seem to believe Paul wrote Hebrews. I already knew he did not.

Don't worry you're much smarter than me. But that is nuttin to brag about just ask jerry

 

[intojoy]

I cannot see how that eliminates Paul from being the author of the book of Hebrews.

After all, did not Paul write a letter to the Hebrew believers. Here is what Peter said about that:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you" (2 Pet.3:15).​

If the book of Hebrews is not that which was written to the Hebrew believers then where do we find what Paul wrote to them?

Wasn't Hebrews written after Peter's epistles?

 

[Nick M]

I cannot see how that eliminates Paul from being the author of the book of Hebrews.

Then you are a liar or retarded.

 

[Nick M]

Wasn't Hebrews written after Peter's epistles?

Paul's gospel comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, not the 12. He learned directly from the ascended Lord. The author of Hebrews is explicit that he learned it from those who saw him.

I am going to go back to not posting to certain people aside from mockery or rebuke, but posted this just in case somebody who doesn't read the Bible reads Jerry's idiot post and thinks there is some reason why Paul wrote it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was not sent to the Hebrews bro

Just read the book of Acts and you will see that he did in fact go to the Hebrews.

 

[intojoy]

Just read the book of Acts and you will see that he did in fact go to the Hebrews.

Nope.
He was sent to the Gentiles.
He said this here

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (*Romans‬ *1‬:*16‬ ASV)

Thus we are to go to the Jews first whenever we come into a place to preach. We first seek the Jewish community and present them with the gospel, then we talk to the geeks.

That's what Paul did. But he said he was predestined to preach to the Gentiles my son.