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  • #16
    Originally posted by Inzl Kett View Post
    The Bride is Israel. All through the Bible the bride metaphors refer to Israel.

    The Body is the Church. The Bride and the Body are two distinct separate entities in Scripture.
    So we're going to marry Israel? Well, then, what's all this talk about Israel and the Body being distinct with "two separate hopes" and all that? If we get married, we'll be ONE.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Clete View Post
      Dan,

      How do you understand the rest of the Eph. 5 passage concerning the the bride, the church, the Body, etc.

      Do you believe as I do, that Paul is intentionally drawing a distinction between the church and the Body in verse 23?

      If so, what are your views on who makes up which group?

      Clete
      Colossians 1:24 says that the church and body are the same.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by surrender View Post
        So we're going to marry Israel? Well, then, what's all this talk about Israel and the Body being distinct with "two separate hopes" and all that? If we get married, we'll be ONE.
        Nobody is. It is a metaphor for the Lord Jesus Christ ruling from Jerusalem over his people. Israel = God's people. That is just my opinion. For a more informed rendering, see below.

        Originally posted by Bob Hill
        I will attempt to prove that the bride of Christ is not the body of Christ. In fact, the bride of Christ is not even a biblical term. The Bible Knowledge Commentary says in comments on Mat 25:41, “With all wickedness removed in the various judgments at the Second Advent, the kingdom will begin on earth with only saved individuals in physical bodies constituting the earthly kingdom as the King’s subjects. Glorified saints from Old Testament times and the church, the bride of Christ, will also be present to share in the reign of the King of kings.” Then, in commenting on 2nd John, they wrote, “The personification of nations and cities as female personages is common in the Bible (cf. “the daughter of Zion”), and the Christian church is often referred to as ‘the bride of Christ’ (cf. Eph. 5:22-33; 2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 19:7).”

        Let’s read Rev 19:5-9: “Then a voice came from the throne, saying, ‘Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!’ 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, ‘Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, ‘Write: “Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”’” Notice, it’s the Lamb’s wife, not the bride of Christ. The Lamb’s wife is associated with Israel as we can see in Rev 21:2 “Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

        It becomes very apparent that the Lamb’s wife is closely related to Israel in Rev 21:9-27 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. 14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

        To see how closely the “the great city, the holy Jerusalem” is linked with Israel, we must read Mat 19:28 “So Jesus said to them, ‘Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’” and Luke 22:28-30 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

        Some have attempted to use Rom 7:4-6 to show the body of Christ is the bride of Christ, Rom 7:4-6 “Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another; to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”, but the word married is the Greek word [genesqai to become] to another.

        Another passage is 2 Co 11:2: “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” Here, Paul a member of the body of Christ betroths them to one husband. Yet Paul was a member of the body. That doesn’t make sense.

        Another passage that is used uses marriage as illustration, but that doesn’t make the church the bride of Christ. Eph 5:25-32, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

        The bride the Lamb’s wife is very closely tied to Israel. We don’t need to steal any blessings from Israel. We are already His body.
        Bold is my emphasis. The gospel of grace is not found in the four gospels. Only a ministry to Israel, as the Lord Jesus Christ clearly lays out. You are not a part of his teachings there. You will not rule over the 12 tribes, no matter how hard you try to spin his teaching. In fact, if you try and spin his teaching you are outside the faith (according to our apostle, Paul) and will be cut off and tossed in the fire. For your false gospel. His words.
        Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

        Titus 1

        For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

        Ephesians 5

        11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Nick M View Post
          Nobody is. It is a metaphor for the Lord Jesus Christ ruling from Jerusalem over his people. Israel = God's people. That is just my opinion. For a more informed rendering, see below.
          If the marriage metaphor simply means that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem over his people, then we will rule from Jerusalem over his people, for we ARE his body. I’m not saying that this is what will happen, but if you’re right about the metaphor then this is also would be true.

          Bold is my emphasis. The gospel of grace is not found in the four gospels. Only a ministry to Israel, as the Lord Jesus Christ clearly lays out.
          God is full of grace and mercy, always. However you want to distinguish between what was revealed to the early disciples and Paul, it is ALL grace. Without God’s grace, there is no good news. In other words, the “gospel of the kingdom” is based on God’s grace.

          You are not a part of his teachings there. You will not rule over the 12 tribes, no matter how hard you try to spin his teaching.
          I really don’t know what the next age will look like. There are very few details. But if you’re right about the metaphor, then it seems to me you’re saying we will rule over Israel, since WE are Jesus’ body.

          In fact, if you try and spin his teaching you are outside the faith (according to our apostle, Paul) and will be cut off and tossed in the fire. For your false gospel. His words.
          Oh brother! I’ll be tossed in the fire for misunderstanding a couple details about what’s to come in the next age. How absurd.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Clete View Post
            Dan,

            How do you understand the rest of the Eph. 5 passage concerning the the bride, the church, the Body, etc.

            Do you believe as I do, that Paul is intentionally drawing a distinction between the church and the Body in verse 23?

            If so, what are your views on who makes up which group?

            Clete


            Hi , and here is a literal translation of Eph 5:23 !!

            " Because the husband is head of of the wife , as also Christ HEAD of the EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLY , and He is the Saviour of the BODY ".

            I see a contrast , first of a man and woman being ONE with the man in a leadership role !!

            Then , Christ is the HEAD of the EKKLESIA /ASSEMBLY !!

            He " IS " , is in the Present tense , which means CONTINUING for all time !!

            Since " IS " , is in the Greek Pensent Tense , we are always " in Christ " which means OSAS !!

            dan p
            Last edited by DAN P; November 16, 2012, 03:05 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by surrender View Post
              God is full of grace and mercy, always. However you want to distinguish between what was revealed to the early disciples and Paul, it is ALL grace. Without God’s grace, there is no good news.
              That is your reply to this?

              Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’” and Luke 22:28-30 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

              You really think he is talking to you. Wow.

              Oh brother! I’ll be tossed in the fire for misunderstanding a couple details about what’s to come in the next age. How absurd.
              It isn't misunderstanding a few verses. It is open rejection of his gospel. You have been shown, and you reject it.
              Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

              Titus 1

              For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

              Ephesians 5

              11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                You really think he is talking to you. Wow.
                Where did I say that? I said however you want to distinguish between what was revealed to the early disciples and Paul, it is all grace. I don’t know where you came up with your idea that I think Jesus is speaking to me in Luke 22.

                It isn't misunderstanding a few verses. It is open rejection of his gospel. You have been shown, and you reject it.
                Yawn

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  Where did I say that?
                  You want to know where you claimed there was one gospel, and Peter and Paul preached the same and are in the same church? Really?

                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  what's all this talk about Israel and the Body being distinct with "two separate hopes" and all that?
                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  Colossians 1:24 says that the church and body are the same.
                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  Jesus spoke of his impending death to his disciples. He also spoke of his resurrection. Whether one believes there’s one or twenty gospels, the Good News is centered around the death and resurrection of Christ.
                  Dan made a statement.

                  Originally posted by DAN P View Post
                  Hi , and Acts 21:22 , definitely shows what Paul was preaching , against the Law of Moses , circumcision, and all the Jewish Customs
                  You said in reply.

                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  Paul didn't preach against the Law of Moses. Acts 21 is an entire demonstration of Paul keeping the Law.
                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  He didn’t succeed; he became a member of the very church he was trying to destroy.
                  Originally posted by surrender View Post
                  Jerusalem, Israel IS one of the “all” nations we are to make disciples. So, obviously the twelve continued to make disciples of “all” nations. Have YOU moved from your nation or even your city to “make disciples of ALL nations”?
                  I hope you get the point. You don't get to just say whatever you want, then say you didn't say that.
                  Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                  Titus 1

                  For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                  Ephesians 5

                  11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
                    You want to know where you claimed there was one gospel, and Peter and Paul preached the same and are in the same church? Really?
                    That’s not what you said in post #21. To clarify, yes, Peter and Paul are both “in Christ” and of the church of God. God can and has given different roles to different people at different times. God can and will grant various roles and various rewards in the next age. Peter and Paul both spoke of God’s grace through the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Messiah Jesus, chosen King of Israel and Lord of the Gentiles.

                    I hope you get the point. You don't get to just say whatever you want, then say you didn't say that.
                    Well, that was a waste of your time, since I never denied saying any of the quotes you pasted here. I denied saying that Luke 22 applies to me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DAN P View Post
                      Hi , and here is a literal translation of Eph 5:23 !!

                      " Because the husband is head of of the wife , as also Christ HEAD of the EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLY , and He is the Saviour of the BODY ".

                      I see a contrast , first of a man and woman being ONE with the man in a leadership role !!

                      Then , Christ is the HEAD of the EKKLESIA /ASSEMBLY !!

                      He " IS " , is in the Present tense , which means CONTINUING for all time !!

                      Since " IS " , is in the Greek Pensent Tense , we are always " in Christ " which means OSAS !!

                      dan p
                      Dan,

                      I'm not sure if your first language is something other than English or what but discussing what the definition of "is" is isn't what I'm getting at, nor do I understand what the relevance is to the topic of the thread. I can't even tell what your position is on the topic at hand, for that matter.

                      Do you believe that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ or not?

                      Why?

                      Resting in Him,
                      Clete
                      sigpic
                      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Who was the bride of the first Adam? Where did she come from?

                        . . . There is the answer as to who is the bride of the last Adam, Jesus Christ, who issues forth from His Person, just as Eve issued forth from the first Adam.

                        Who, alone, is produced by the Holy Spirit of Christ?

                        Nang
                        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                        Gordon H. Clark

                        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                        Charles Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by surrender View Post
                          If one has put their "hope" in the very few details of the next age found in Scripture, rather than in God Himself, then one's hope is misplaced.

                          Those with faith in the God of Messiah Jesus (whether Jew, Gentile, "nation of Israel," whatever you want to label it) have the same hope. He IS our hope. If you've missed that, you've missed too much.


                          Hi , and even those that follered Jesus expected Him to Restore the Kingdom to Israel , Acts 1:6 , and even today , believers do not understand that God would be SEETING Israel Aside , and most do not see the Near View and than the Far View of Israel .

                          The Near Views was Acts 1:6 !!

                          The Far View is Rom 11:25-26 !!

                          dan p

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DAN P View Post
                            Hi , and even those that follered Jesus expected Him to Restore the Kingdom to Israel , Acts 1:6 , and even today , believers do not understand that God would be SEETING Israel Aside , and most do not see the Near View and than the Far View of Israel .

                            The Near Views was Acts 1:6 !!

                            The Far View is Rom 11:25-26 !!

                            dan p
                            Yes, I know all this. I'm just saying that there seems to be, at least in the "mid-Acts" circles, more weight on the hope of what things will be like in the next age than on the hope we have in the person of Christ. It leans toward idolatry, in my opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Clete View Post
                              Dan,

                              I'm not sure if your first language is something other than English or what but discussing what the definition of "is" is isn't what I'm getting at, nor do I understand what the relevance is to the topic of the thread. I can't even tell what your position is on the topic at hand, for that matter.

                              Do you believe that the Body of Christ is the Bride of Christ or not?

                              Why?

                              Resting in Him,
                              Clete

                              Hi , and there are some who question if English is my first language and I was born here but do speak another tongue , and I guess you can say I " speak in tongues " .

                              I am not the best speaker , but only good Dispensationalist really understand what I write and will attempt to write in my other langauge .

                              The EKKLESIA /ASSEMBLY the Body of Christ is NOT the Bride of Christ !!

                              Hope that makes it clear !!

                              dan p

                              Comment

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