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The Water and Earth were Both Present Before the Six Days of Creation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Got it.

    As far as I can tell, verses 1, 8, 9, 14, 15, 17 and 20 use the Hebrew word shamay for heaven in either form, but only the v8 instance should be pluralized in English, which is what the NKJV does.
    The Hebrew is always "Shamaim". Grammatically is has a plural ending, but it isn't really plural in the usual sense. There is no "Shamay" that refers to Sky or Heaven, as far as I know.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by chair View Post
      The Hebrew is always "Shamaim". Grammatically is has a plural ending, but it isn't really plural in the usual sense. There is no "Shamay" that refers to Sky or Heaven, as far as I know.
      OK. My mistake. I can't read Hebrew that well, I guess.

      Why do the NKJV translators use Heaven (upper case, singular in English) exclusively in verse 8 of all the instances in Genesis 1? Just from context?
      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
      E≈mc2
      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
      -Bob B.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Stripe View Post
        OK. My mistake. I can't read Hebrew that well, I guess.

        Why do the NKJV translators use Heaven (upper case, singular in English) exclusively in verse 8 of all the instances in Genesis 1? Just from context?
        I'm not sure. It may have more to do with how the English language works than with the Hebrew.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
          From the scripture it seems to say that water and the earth were here when God started his six 24 hour day creation period...


          Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

          1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

          2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

          See, the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the waters of the earth.
          If God didn’t make the heavens and earth, and the water on the earth before the six day creation period; When do you believe he made the water and earth?
          I have a different theory.
          There appears to me that there is a logical progression of creation throughout the six days, based on the complexity of the things created.

          Genesis 1:1 refers to all six days of creation, nothing in our physical universe existed before Genesis 1:3.

          Genesis 1:2 says that there was no earth at all at that time, it had not been created yet. The "deep" and "waters" refer to the nothingness that God created the heavens and the earth from, but it doesn't match the H2O we know as water, since none of the elements had been created at this time.

          Genesis 1:3-5 The first day refers to God creating photons, the strange wave-particles that are the simplest elements of creation. It is possible that the quantum field was created first and then photons were created from the quantum field.

          Genesis 1:6-8 The second day refers to God creating simple atoms that form our periodic table of elements out of the quantum field. The gases in our atmosphere come from these simple atoms, which is why the creation of the sky (firmament, heavens) is mentioned at this time.

          Genesis 1:9-13 The third day refers to God creating complex molecules formed from combinations of atoms. These molecules make up the water in the seas (H2O) and the rocks in the earth, explaining why this is the day when God called the waters Seas and the dry land Earth. In addition to the non-living complex molecules, God also created RNA and DNA to become the building blocks of living things, and created living plants out of them.

          Genesis 1:14-19 The fourth day God set up the Sun and photosynthesis to give energy to the living plants. God also created the Moon to provide tides in the seas and movement to the atmosphere to give us weather and seasons. He also filled in planets and other moons in the solar system and created other stars and planets in the outer reaches of space.

          Genesis 1:20-23 The fifth day God created the first animal life: the creatures in the seas and the birds in the sky.

          Genesis 1:24-31 The sixth day God created the land dwelling animals, culminating in the creation of mankind, the most complex of all creatures.

          There are other nuances in the verses of creation that I am skipping here, since I am just trying to outline the progression of creation that I saw.
          Learn to read what is written.

          _____
          The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
          ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

          Comment


          • #20
            While my theory of an old earth and old universe with young life does not employ the idea of “long day” periods of the six days of creation, many OECs do believe that the days of creation are extended periods of time; and, some even claim millions if not billions of years long “long days”.
            It’s always confused me how any thinking person could possibly come to the conclusion that a “day” in the Holy Bible could ever mean anything other than a 24 hour period of time; except for of course in such a phrase as “in the day of Solomon,” or “in the day of Noah.”

            I think the Hebrew texts are clear that the six days of creation were indeed 24 hour days, and God created the life and environment for it in those six days.

            This is a “new” video of the debate between the YEC theory of creation week, and the OEC theory of days that last millions, if not billions of years; Ken Ham vs Jeff Zweerink!

            =M=



            ============================

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
              While my theory of an old earth and old universe with young life does not employ the idea of “long day” periods of the six days of creation, many OECs do believe that the days of creation are extended periods of time; and, some even claim millions if not billions of years long “long days”.
              It’s always confused me how any thinking person could possibly come to the conclusion that a “day” in the Holy Bible could ever mean anything other than a 24 hour period of time; except for of course in such a phrase as “in the day of Solomon,” or “in the day of Noah.”

              I think the Hebrew texts are clear that the six days of creation were indeed 24 hour days, and God created the life and environment for it in those six days.
              If you accept what Jesus said (and you should), millions or billions of years is not possible anywhere in scripture, not in between verses 1 and 2, and certainly not by taking "day" to mean a long period of time.

              But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ - Mark 10:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6&version=NKJV

              In other words, God made the universe, the earth, the seas, and everything in them, in six days, and man on Day 6, at the BEGINNING of the creation ("now" being the continuous "end" of creation).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                If you accept what Jesus said (and you should), millions or billions of years is not possible anywhere in scripture, not in between verses 1 and 2, and certainly not by taking "day" to mean a long period of time.

                But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ - Mark 10:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6&version=NKJV

                In other words, God made the universe, the earth, the seas, and everything in them, in six days, and man on Day 6, at the BEGINNING of the creation ("now" being the continuous "end" of creation).
                So, in your opinion; which day do you believe God created the water and earth?

                Do you agree that the Bible says angels were present when God laid the foundations of the earth?

                If so, which day were they made; or, do you believe they always existed with God, even before time itself as we know it in this existence?


                [Job 38:4 KJV] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
                [Job 38:5 KJV] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
                [Job 38:6 KJV] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
                [Job 38:7 KJV] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

                [Isa 42:5 KJV] Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

                I find it outstanding that the Bible says God stretches out the heavens, and we now have proven through observation, that the universe or “heavens” are indeed expanding.

                =M=

                ===========================

                Comment


                • #23
                  On the subject of “observable truth” which is now today proven science, that was already written plainly in the Holy Bible:

                  Spreading out of the Universe, or an expanding universe.
                  The Bible said the universe had a beginning, which is what the majority of scientific communities now accept as truth; it may surprise you that many scientists used to believe that the universe always was, and had no beginning... The Bible always had that right...
                  The fountains of the deep were discovered; now called hydrothermal vents by modern science.

                  There are many more examples of scientific facts that the Bible presented as facts, long before science was able to observe them and realize them as facts.

                  This is a video related to this very subject:

                  =M=

                  ==========================

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    To further elaborate on this Idea of proven science explained in the Bible:

                    The Bible contains the concept of entropy...
                    All structures break down over time.

                    [Psa 102:25 KJV] Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
                    [Psa 102:26 KJV] They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
                    [Psa 102:27 KJV] But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.

                    The scripture is clear on the fact that all of creation is slowly breaking down; the idea that nothing is permanent but God is an absolutely interesting concept to be put forth.
                    In the past, science assumed that there are things in the universe that are everlasting, but the Bible has always claimed that nothing lasts forever but God.

                    Laws of Science today say just that.

                    =M=

                    ==========================

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
                      So, in your opinion;
                      My opinion has nothing to do with this.

                      which day do you believe God created the water and earth?
                      Day 1.

                      In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. - Genesis 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

                      Do you agree that the Bible says angels were present when God laid the foundations of the earth?
                      I do, however, the Bible does not state explicitly when exactly they were created, just that they were made within the first week of creation, as per Genesis 2:1.

                      If so, which day were they made;
                      I believe they were made on day 1, or at the very least, before day 3, as per the verses from Job you quote below.

                      or, do you believe they always existed with God,
                      No.

                      [QUOTE]even before time itself as we know it in this existence?[/COLOR]

                      Time is an aspect of God's existence, and since God has always existed, then time has also, since it is an aspect of His existence, always existed.

                      But no, Angels did not exist before Genesis 1:1, because God started by making the heavens and the earth.

                      [Job 38:4 KJV]Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?[/COLOR] declare, if thou hast understanding.
                      [Job 38:5 KJV] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
                      [Job 38:6 KJV] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
                      [Job 38:7 KJV] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

                      [Isa 42:5 KJV] Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

                      I find it outstanding that the Bible says God stretches out the heavens, and we now have proven through observation, that the universe or “heavens” are indeed expanding.

                      =M=
                      Rather, it says He stretched, past tense, out the heavens. Meaning He finished stretching them out.

                      But I do agree that the universe, from our point of view, is showing effects of being stretched out.

                      But, what does any of this have to do with the universe being millions or billions of years old or only 7-10k?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
                        On the subject of “observable truth” which is now today proven science, that was already written plainly in the Holy Bible:

                        Spreading out of the Universe, or an expanding universe.
                        Again, past tense, "stretched." No longer happening.

                        The Bible said the universe had a beginning, which is what the majority of scientific communities now accept as truth; it may surprise you that many scientists used to believe that the universe always was, and had no beginning... The Bible always had that right...
                        The fountains of the deep were discovered; now called hydrothermal vents by modern science.
                        Two words:

                        Hydroplate Theory.

                        There are many more examples of scientific facts that the Bible presented as facts, long before science was able to observe them and realize them as facts.

                        =M=
                        True science will never contradict scripture.

                        Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
                        To further elaborate on this Idea of proven science explained in the Bible:

                        The Bible contains the concept of entropy...
                        All structures break down over time.

                        [Psa 102:25 KJV] Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
                        [Psa 102:26 KJV] They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
                        [Psa 102:27 KJV] But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.

                        The scripture is clear on the fact that all of creation is slowly breaking down; the idea that nothing is permanent but God is an absolutely interesting concept to be put forth.
                        In the past, science assumed that there are things in the universe that are everlasting, but the Bible has always claimed that nothing lasts forever but God.

                        Laws of Science today say just that.

                        =M=
                        I think you need to go read this.

                        http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

                        You may find it worth your while.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          So, you don’t believe the universe is still expanding?

                          I find it hard to understand why you seem to believe time existed before reality.
                          Why do you believe this?

                          I mean, I’ve always assumed time doesn’t apply to God given he is eternal, and created this reality.

                          You assume God made the angels on day 1?

                          So, as far as the whole distance between stars, and the speed of light; the whole idea that light takes a very long time to travel from these stars to our eyes...
                          Do you think this fact is explained by God just making the universe with an apparent age?

                          I mean, I talk to people at an observatory near my home regularly, and try to explain how the origin of stars and planets and solar systems could not be explained by the existence of dust, gasses, Gravity, and time alone.

                          I mean, to say that a star could be constructed by natural physical forces, and no intelligent design involved whatsoever; seems like a bit of a stretch for me.... and that may agree with that...

                          But, if I were to come at them with “the universe is actually 6-10 thousand years old, but just ignore the fact we can see star systems that are billions of light years away, because our God created them with apparent age”, it seems like a far less logical argument, than the obvious intelligent design idea.

                          What would you answer an astronomer who says the universe is obviously billions of years old, because we can see Stars that are billions of light years away?

                          =M=
                          Last edited by mtwilcox; October 8th, 2019, 09:07 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            If you do not use the "Reply with Quote" button, I may not get your responses. Please use it.

                            Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
                            So, you don’t believe the universe is still expanding?
                            I believe the Bible, which uses the past tense word "stretched."

                            I find it hard to understand why you seem to believe time existed before reality.
                            That's because you've been raised in a church that teaches (assuming you were raised in a church, or if not, you learned from those who believe in...) the "timelessness of God."

                            The Bible does not teach that God is outside of time, or that time was created.

                            https://kgov.com/time

                            Why do you believe this?
                            Because time being created is a logical contradiction.

                            You cannot have a "before creation" if there is no time.

                            In other words, time is a prerequisite of creation, therefore time itself cannot be created.

                            I mean, I’ve always assumed time doesn’t apply to God given he is eternal, and created this reality.
                            Eternal implies infinite time, not "no time."

                            You assume God made the angels on day 1?
                            I said that I believe, at the very least, that they were created before day 3.

                            I don't assume it though, and am open to being persuaded otherwise, though to do so, one would have to show how my paradigm of beliefs are incorrect, since the angels being created before day 3 fits my paradigm.

                            So, as far as the whole distance between stars, and the speed of light; the whole idea that light takes a very long time to travel from these stars to our eyes...
                            See https://kgov.com/stretch

                            See also https://answersingenesis.org/astrono...-time-problem/

                            Do you think this fact is explained by God just making the universe with an apparent age?
                            No.

                            See the above links.

                            I mean, I talk to people at an observatory near my home regularly, and try to explain how the origin of stars and planets and solar systems could not be explained by the existence of dust, gasses, Gravity, and time alone.
                            See above.

                            I mean, to say that a star could be constructed by natural physical forces, and no intelligent design involved whatsoever; seems like a bit of a stretch for me.... and that may agree with that...
                            Stars were created on Day 4 of the creation week by God.

                            But, if I were to come at them with “the universe is actually 6-10 thousand years old,
                            More likely 7 thousand, but certainly no more than 10.

                            but just ignore the fact we can see star systems that are billions of light years away, because our God created them with apparent age”,
                            You should stop applying arguments not made by me and others on this thread to us. Making such comments shows you're not really paying attention to what is being said.

                            it seems like a far less logical argument, than the obvious intelligent design idea.
                            Good thing it's not something that I argue.

                            Do try to refrain from bringing up straw man arguments.

                            What would you answer an astronomer who says the universe is obviously billions of years old, because we can see Stars that are billions of light years away?

                            =M=
                            I would suggest that he consider the possibility that the "age" is an artifact of God having stretched out the heavens when He created them. I would also point him to the above links.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that you believe in apparent age.

                              Thanks for the reply, once again.

                              If you don’t believe that the universe is still expanding, what to you make of the fact we observe that stars are gaining distance between us and them?

                              I mean, do you believe that stars are stationary in space?

                              While the term stretched is used, do you believe that proves the Bible teaches that the heavenly bodies in space are no longer being stretched out?

                              =M=

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mtwilcox View Post
                                Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that you believe in apparent age.

                                Thanks for the reply, once again.

                                If you don’t believe that the universe is still expanding, what to you make of the fact we observe that stars are gaining distance between us and them?

                                I mean, do you believe that stars are stationary in space?

                                While the term stretched is used, do you believe that proves the Bible teaches that the heavenly bodies in space are no longer being stretched out?

                                =M=


                                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                                If you do not use the "Reply with Quote" button, I may not get your responses. Please use it.


                                I believe the Bible, which uses the past tense word "stretched."

                                . . .

                                https://kgov.com/time

                                . . .

                                See https://kgov.com/stretch

                                See also https://answersingenesis.org/astrono...-time-problem/

                                . . .

                                Stars were created on Day 4 of the creation week by God.

                                . . .

                                I would suggest that he consider the possibility that the "age" is an artifact of God having stretched out the heavens when He created them. I would also point him to the above links.

                                Comment

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