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Is there a Christian cosmology that doesn't include miracles?

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  • #16
    If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed? Those strike me as valid theological questions
    "It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
      If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed?
      "It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.
      Start another thread please, preferably in the Religion forum, or perhaps even the ECT.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
        He created, granted, acknowledged and I know it to be true. But was it x-nihilo or was it from things unseen. If it was from things unseen, did the way He do it have to violate the laws of physics?

        Which laws did it violate? All of them? Which ones?
        The first miracle, answered in the post you quoted, found here:

        Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
        . . .

        God creating the heavens and the earth would be considered a miracle, as creating everything out of nothing is not possible according to the first law of thermodynamics. But since the laws of the physical universe did not exist prior to God's creation of the universe, they therefore do not apply to Him.

        . . .

        God created the matter and energy all at once in Genesis 1:1.

        Everything He did afterword in the first six days that He created was by definition miraculous. He was setting into motion the universe He created.
        Creating matter and energy, including light: First law of thermodynamics.
        Creating life: Law of abiogenesis.

        As for FORMING what he had created, there's nothing violated physics-wise, other than God supernaturally manipulating the matter and energy, by God forming it into things.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

          I tried to in my original post.

          Today, Christian cosmology takes it for granted that all of creation was a miracle, I don't think that it is absolutely established that God "had to" violate "His" laws of physics to create out of things unseen.
          Well, no, it's not taken for granted. It by definition WAS a miracle, because according to the laws of physics, matter and energy cannot be created (nor destroyed), yet God created the physical universe with that law. If you think creation was NOT a miracle, then the onus is on you to present the case that it was not.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

            Start another thread please, preferably in the Religion forum, or perhaps even the ECT.
            No, I was responding to your post here.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post

              No, I was responding to your post here.
              No you weren't, at least, you didn't quote me if you were, in which case how am I supposed to know?

              You were attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread, or stay on topic.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
                If my deity is myself at least I should not have difficulty interpreting what I write. How many different christian denominations are there? Do they all agree on one interpretation of the Bible? Why cannot your god give a straight answer? Are works needed for salvation for example? Was Calvin right, you are either chosen or doomed? Those strike me as valid theological questions
                "It's a miracle" is a common ploy of Christians. With no hope of figuring it out.
                Your creation story is also a miracle, so don't try to dodge that problem.
                All of my ancestors are human.
                Originally posted by Squeaky
                That explains why your an idiot.
                Originally posted by God's Truth
                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

                  Well, no, it's not taken for granted. It by definition WAS a miracle, because according to the laws of physics, matter and energy cannot be created (nor destroyed), yet God created the physical universe with that law. If you think creation was NOT a miracle, then the onus is on you to present the case that it was not.

                  What if God din't create the energy, what if He took it from Himself? What if it was a very personal gift, from His own being. That rings much more loving to me, much more like God did with His Son. "If" He took it from Himself that would not violate conservation of energy.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                    What if God din't create the energy, what if He took it from Himself?
                    Energy is part of the physical universe. It did not exist prior to God creating the universe.

                    What if it was a very personal gift, from His own being. That rings much more loving to me, much more like God did with His Son. "If" He took it from Himself that would not violate conservation of energy.
                    God is Spirit. He is not energy.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

                      Energy is part of the physical universe. It did not exist prior to God creating the universe.



                      God is Spirit. He is not energy.
                      Granted God is a spiritual being, but that is not a full description of God is it?

                      God is powerful.

                      Does His power only come after creation?

                      So, your saying God wasn't always powerful?

                      Dose your cosmology force God to have no energy before creation?

                      If God wanted to have power before creation, your saying no, sorry you can't have any???

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                        Granted God is a spiritual being, but that is not a full description of God is it?

                        God is powerful.

                        Does His power only come after creation?

                        So, your saying God wasn't always powerful?

                        Dose your cosmology force God to have no energy before creation?

                        If God wanted to have power before creation, your saying no, sorry you can't have any???
                        You're conflating energy with power.

                        The power that God has is well beyond any "energy" in the physical universe.
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                          You're conflating energy with power.

                          The power that God has is well beyond any "energy" in the physical universe.
                          Just change the wording then.

                          Are you saying God had/has no energy in Himself?

                          Are you saying you can prohibit Him from either possessing energy or energy being inherit in Him?

                          Are you saying that "if" God wanted energy He couldn't have had it before the first day of creation of the universe?

                          Can we agree that unseen energy can and does exist?

                          Is energy prohibited in the spirit realm?





                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post
                            Because you still need your deity to do the work
                            Here, you are conceding that God exists--unless, of course, you, by your phrase, "your deity", are not referring to God. And, if you are not referring to God, then to whom (if anyone) or what (if anything) are you referring?

                            You need God to exist in order to be able to say things about Him; even to be able to say such stupidities as, "God does not exist", and "I don't believe God exists".
                            All my ancestors are human.
                            PS: All your ancestors are human.
                            PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Jonahdog View Post

                              You missed my point. Miracle or not you still require your particular deity. I don't need one
                              Of course you need God in order to be referring to God by your phrase, "your particular deity".

                              All my ancestors are human.
                              PS: All your ancestors are human.
                              PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post

                                Just change the wording then.

                                Are you saying God had/has no energy in Himself?
                                God has all power which includes all energy, as energy is something that He created.

                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                                Are you saying you can prohibit Him from either possessing energy or energy being inherit in Him?
                                God is all powerful. Nobody can "prohibit" Him anything.

                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                                Are you saying that "if" God wanted energy He couldn't have had it before the first day of creation of the universe?


                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                                Can we agree that unseen energy can and does exist?
                                First, energy is a physical phenomenon. Second, you cannot see energy, you only see its effects.

                                Originally posted by tieman55 View Post
                                Is energy prohibited in the spirit realm?
                                You ask the silliest questions. Energy is a physical phenomenon.

                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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