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  • Originally posted by logos_x
    Well...the answer for me is that the lake of fire is for correction and remediation...not forever and ever.
    Correction and remediation of what? Did Jesus forgive sins, never to be remembered by God, or not?
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
      Correction and remediation of what? Did Jesus forgive sins, never to be remembered by God, or not?
      Yes, He did. And that more than any other reason makes it difficult to believe in an eternal punitive action against sin rather than it's complete abolishment.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by logos_x
        Yes, He did. And that more than any other reason makes it difficult to believe in an eternal punitive action against sin rather than it's complete abolishment.
        So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?
        Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

        But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

        What are my fruits today?

        Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

        "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
          So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?
          Not to be tormented forever, obviously.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by logos_x
            Our dealings with the sin problem are as varied within the universal salvation model as it is within that of the eternal torment model. It's amazing to me that "hell" must be viewed as unending because grace ends at death under the eternal torment model, but in the universal salvation model grace does not end forever, sin does end...and that is viewed as if the gospel has been thown out by those that hold the eternal torment model. Bizzare.
            Grace ends when sin ends. If people choose sin over grace then the only possible response is separation. Once separation has happened there is only one avenue for return, through faith in Christ.
            Where is the evidence for a global flood?
            E≈mc2
            "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

            "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
            -Bob B.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by stipe
              Grace ends when sin ends. If people choose sin over grace then the only possible response is separation. Once separation has happened there is only one avenue for return, through faith in Christ.
              I agree.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by logos_x
                Not to be tormented forever, obviously.
                You are too smart and too well read for me to allow you to side-step a question like that. Think about it, pray about, talk to others but I want you to give a solid answer to this question: If Jesus was seccesseful at forgiving sins, what sends somebody to hell?

                This is an important question and I need you to answer it directly and honestly.
                Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

                But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

                What are my fruits today?

                Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

                "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

                Comment


                • Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
                  So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?
                  Originally posted by logos_x
                  Not to be tormented forever, obviously.
                  Universalism is shown to be easily refuted by so many different and simple lines of questioning. Questions like:
                  Why do people go to hell?
                  Why did Jesus die? and
                  What price do we pay for sin?
                  should have simple, one verse answers. That universalism cannot give simple answers to simple questions is not proof that universalism is wrong, but it's a huge clue toward the fact that it is decietful.
                  Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                  E≈mc2
                  "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                  "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                  -Bob B.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
                    You are too smart and too well read for me to allow you to side-step a question like that. Think about it, pray about, talk to others but I want you to give a solid answer to this question: If Jesus was seccesseful at forgiving sins, what sends somebody to hell?

                    This is an important question and I need you to answer it directly and honestly.
                    I don't view it as sidestepping.

                    Look...your premise is that sin has been taken away, so why do people still go to hell.
                    The answer of eternal torment is completely unsatisfactory, because it would have people burning...whether literally or metaphorically...forever in spite of the grace offered because they failed to recieve it before they die. The grace is no longer offered because of death.
                    That makes death victorious over God's grace.

                    My premise says that the grace is still offered even though we die....and that at least gives the hope that people are saved from hell even if they arrive there before recieving it.

                    If you are trying to say that eternal torment explains why people go to Hell....well, good luck with that. The explanation as to why they go to hell is the same in both the eternal torment model and the universal salvation model.
                    Last edited by logos_x; January 4th, 2007, 10:17 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by stipe
                      Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
                      So if your sins are forgiven, why are people still going to hell?

                      Universalism is shown to be easily refuted by so many different and simple lines of questioning. Questions like:
                      Why do people go to hell?
                      Why did Jesus die? and
                      What price do we pay for sin?
                      should have simple, one verse answers. That universalism cannot give simple answers to simple questions is not proof that universalism is wrong, but it's a huge clue toward the fact that it is decietful.
                      Stipe...the answer to these questions are the same answers in both universal salvation and eternal torment.

                      The difference is that in universal salvation, grace is still there, and in the eternal torment model it isn't.

                      Does this help?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by logos_x
                        The difference is that in universal salvation, grace is still there, and in the eternal torment model it isn't. Does this help?
                        No. Grace must cease.
                        Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                        E≈mc2
                        "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                        "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                        -Bob B.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by stipe
                          No. Grace must cease.
                          Everything that Christ paid for must cease?

                          Forgive me if I must disagree.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by logos_x
                            Everything that Christ paid for must cease? Forgive me if I must disagree.
                            How can you disagree with that? What did Christ pay for Logos? Will that thing cease?
                            Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                            E≈mc2
                            "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                            "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                            -Bob B.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by stipe
                              How can you disagree with that? What did Christ pay for Logos? Will that thing cease?
                              If anything is eternal, then surely what Christ did is eternal in it's accomplishments.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by stipe
                                No. Grace must cease.
                                why must it?
                                "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                                - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                                Comment

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