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  • zapp
    replied
    Just re-stating some obvious observations:
    - In OT and NT we find clear "already but not-yet" concepts. Blessings, gifts, outcomes that are clearly seen as in God's will and plan, but which lack fulfillment or realization. [that is, SOME, I do not say ALL]
    - What appears to be "slam dunk" in some passages turn out to be "conditional" in others.
    - God intended to evangelize, proselytize and 'save' the entire world through the Jews
    - God "made alive" all humans through Jesus, just as He "made dead" all through Adam
    - Salvation has been brought to "all men" through the Cross.
    - A Question: Was all of Israel... prophetically .... written into the "book of Life" via Isaac?
    - And, in view of above, were "all Men"... meaning all mankind, recorded in the "book of Life" at the time Jesus paid the eternal price? And if so, how do those 'names' come to be "never written" in the books?

    God is not bound by our definitions of time and space. That is abundantly clear in the many "already -but- not-yet" passages. You are "saved"..... "IF" you continue.

    Leave a comment:


  • red77
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    No, it isn't. Maybe some folks have earned a special place.
    don't you think that it's about time you at least had some consistency about just what it is that you believe?

    What does this have to do with anything, other than reiteration of your discredited ideas? I see you're still ignoring the conditions God has put on salvation. Why is that?
    No i'm not, i'm just not putting time constraints on it....

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Instead the message you are proclaiming will leave you with BLOOD on your hands if anyone goes into eternity trusting anything other than Christ because of the false hope that YOU have given them!
    The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!

    Furthermore, that trust is justified in that He is seen to be not only sufficient but effective to the task, worthy of our worship and trust, unlike in your namby-pamby, "God-must-submit-to-man's-free-will" theology.

    There is no "false hope" in the Christian Universalist scenario, only hope "in Christ," for everyone, no exceptions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by red77 View Post
    Uh, that is not the same as eternal torment Frank....
    No, it isn't. Maybe some folks have earned a special place.
    Every knee bows and every tongue confesses one day Frank, God wills all men to come to a kowledge of the truth and I believe that in the fullness of time God could achieve his own will, don't you...?
    What does this have to do with anything, other than reiteration of your discredited ideas? I see you're still ignoring the conditions God has put on salvation. Why is that?

    Leave a comment:


  • red77
    replied
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    (Just for the fun of it, I put your quotes in red here and my responses to you in blue, Red.)
    Well, I think i'll just stick with normal font but colourful post......

    And you and Redfin both have twisted and distorted again what was said. I never said that ONLY the universalists have kept this thread going in the first place. Man you people cannot even have a simple conversation without twisting and contorting someone's words. Here was what I said:


    I said you boneheads have HELPED make BR XII the most discussed Battle Talk thread in the history of TOL. This particular conversation is a perfect example of why. Words are bent around and twisted, and it takes 5-6 posts to straighten it out, but you will continue to twist and bend things said until the people just give up and figure it isn't worth it banging their head against the wall trying to talk to you. Universalism=MUMBO JUMBO!
    You actually said that you were 'stunned' that us "boneheads" had helped make the thread the most talked about battle talk, the fact that it is shouldn't be any great shock to you or anyone else, you seemed to imply that the thread shouldn't have lasted as long and if your intention was misinterpreted by me then you have my apologies, just don't try and use a crossed wires incident to bang on about twisting and contorting, it cuts both ways, in another thread you had taken a post of mine completely out of context and I had to explain it to you, but you don't see me using it as an excuse to say that your whole theology must be flawed because of it......


    If it were only my "conceptions" then there would be no issue and this thread woudl not have stretched so long. We haven't been talking about conceptions. We have been talking about what the Bible says. You accept only the verses that you think fit your cushy little theology and reject the ones that don't. You are fine with accepting a literal hermeneutic with some verses, but NOT the ones that destroy your flimsy Universalist views.
    i beg to differ, they are your conceptions and interpretations which neither Redfin, myself or I suspect anyone else has a problem with addressing, I was trying to tell you that no-one wishes you to talk about the weather and not debate strongly as no-one is afraid of your views the same as you won't be afraid of ours, fair enough?

    Your age-old strawman has NEVER worked Red. It has been refuted time and again. We never have said GOD wasn't 100% successful. It would seem you would get tired of lying. GOD was 100% successful, but He gave His creatures a will of their own to act contrary to HIS will or to obey His will. This is shown throughout the Word of God.


    To believe that most of the world is hellbound is to believe that God is not 100% successful, whether that is down to free will or not is irrelevant, you believe that God cannot restore the fullness of his own creation, whatever reason you have for believeing such does not negate that fact....

    For instance: God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did so anyway, demonstrating that they had wills of their own.
    Yes, and why shouldn't this be something that God can't incorporate into the reconciling of his own world exactly?

    God DESIRES all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but He also gives them the ability to choose or reject that salvation. This IS the Gospel message Red. That Christ died for the sins of the unGodly. That WHOSOEVER will put their faith and trust in Him will not perish, but will have everlasting life. It's an open-ended invitation.


    It's not openended in your theology! And I notice that you choose to go with the interpretation 'desires' instead of 'wills' which i believe is the more accurate translation, obviously it makes it easier to go with 'desires' if you're an ET'er.....

    Your theology is evil because it denies God's Word, denies that His justice and holiness are just as eternal as His love. In order to be a Universalist you must accept the following positions:
    your theology is evil because instead of God's justice and wrath being a part of his love (God being love) they actually override it....

    DENY- the verses that state clearly and literally that the wicked are tormented day and night forever and ever.


    They already have been, right from the original greek translations to the obvious metaphorical nature of the pasages themselves, I know you continually like to play this down but for what is so "clear" there sure are a lot of opinions on the subject just from ET'ers......

    DENY- the verses that clearly state that anyone whose name is NOT in the Book of Life WILL NOT enter Heaven.
    I suppose you think that the book is a literal book as well do you?

    DENY- that those who have not believed are condemned already, which is to DENY the words of Jesus HImself.
    It doesn't say condemned to an eternity of agony does it? yet again you have to interpret the verse to fit into ET

    DENY- the translations of thousands upon thousands of reknowned Greek scholars for the words that mean eternal and everlasting, and in their place insist upon translations that are obscure at best, and downright hokie to say the least.
    Oh you can do better than that pastor, the translators that translate aion are hardly disreputable and in plenty of cases don't have any "universalist agenda" to push....


    As we have already showned you time and again, if you had the same view of sin that God does you would not think it is senseless in the least. You would humble yourself before a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God and repent of your sins, and be thankful that He would spare any sinners like you and me!
    tormenting and agonising helpless and sentient beings is plain wrong pastor, it has nothing to do with a hatred of sin and it accomplishes nothing, it IS senseless, annihalationism would make much more sense as it would actually get rid of sin altogether instead of keeping people in some pointless state of suffering existence where in some far flung corner sin still exists as well......


    Redfin was playing thread police earlier. My response was to him, and did not involve you. He's a big boy Red, he can stick up for himself! But I guess what they say is true: "Birds of a feather flock together." In this instance the TWO birds being you and Redfin are a pair of false teachers!

    I responded to that because you had tried that tactic on me in another thread, I'm well aware that Redfin could have answered for himself.....

    Or you could show them love and compassion and do EVERYTHING you can to try to warn them about the Lake of Fire! Instead the message you are proclaiming will leave you with BLOOD on your hands if anyone goes into eternity trusting anything other than Christ because of the false hope that YOU have given them!

    That in and of itself should cause you to pause and consider this whole entire thing. But your heart is so set and hard against what God has to say on this subject that you won't hear. Still, maybe others reading this might, so I will press on and NEVER give up in my fight against the false teaching of Universalism. I find it to be quite possibly the most dangerous and wicked theology out there!
    You have no idea just how much your theology alienates and turns people away do you? my parents were pushed further away from faith when I was in the pentecostal church because of the hellfire message, my friends were when the church condemned a lad we'd known to eternal suffering for taking his own life, if there's any doctrine that is evil it is surely yours, I've seen people living in morbid fear because of it, i've seen the myriad intrpretations of ET from yours through to the darkest realms of extreme calvinism where babies are said to suffer through eternity if they die, people like Johathan Edwards who thinks that we would rejoice to see our loved ones in the fire because of the "justice"....

    Effectively you are saying that men are responsible for the eternal destinies of other men too, "if Joe says the right thing then Bob will think and repent, if Joe says the wrong thing or doesn't speak at all then Bob doesn't think and doesn't repent", Do you still want to maintain that we would have blood on our hands? i believe in a God a bit bigger than a one who would leave such crucial matters in the hands of men for their own salvation and for that of other people

    your doctrine is the coldest, bleakest and darkest most despairing message that there is, families and loved ones torn apart with no hope and only pointless pain, i suggest it's not my heart that is 'set and hard' but yours, the God you believe in is not love but anger....

    Leave a comment:


  • red77
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    Sure did! As much as the Bible talks about it. Would you not class annihilation as an eternal punishment?
    Uh, that is not the same as eternal torment Frank....

    I reckon He can too! Oh! You forgot to mention the "IF"s, i.e., the conditions God sets forth for salvation. Oversight or deliberate disregard?
    Every knee bows and every tongue confesses one day Frank, God wills all men to come to a kowledge of the truth and I believe that in the fullness of time God could achieve his own will, don't you...?

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by red77 View Post
    Uh, so you never said anything about annihilationism did you not....?
    Sure did! As much as the Bible talks about it. Would you not class annihilation as an eternal punishment?
    God said he came to save the world, I reckon he can. You?
    I reckon He can too! Oh! You forgot to mention the "IF"s, i.e., the conditions God sets forth for salvation. Oversight or deliberate disregard?

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    What's wrong, Sherriff Redfin can't have a deputy?
    Okay Pastor Fife, here's your badge.

    And here's your bullet, Barney... I mean Kevi. Keep it in your pocket.

    Leave a comment:


  • PKevman
    replied
    Originally posted by Redfin View Post
    Wow! Talk about "thread-police" mode!

    What's wrong, Sherriff Redfin can't have a deputy?

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Oh boy! Redfin is replying class. Let's see what inanities that avoid the Bible he can come up with next.
    Wow! Talk about "thread-police" mode!

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Your theology is evil because it denies God's Word, denies that His justice and holiness are just as eternal as His love. In order to be a Universalist you must accept the following positions:
    “Must,” eh?

    Think again.

    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    DENY- the verses that state clearly and literally that the wicked are tormented day and night forever and ever.
    False. CU denies that the verses literally state that. There is a difference.

    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    DENY- the verses that clearly state that anyone whose name is NOT in the Book of Life WILL NOT enter Heaven.
    False. CU agrees with this.

    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    DENY- that those who have not believed are condemned already, which is to DENY the words of Jesus HImself.
    False. CU agrees with this too.

    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    DENY- the translations of thousands upon thousands of reknowned Greek scholars for the words that mean eternal and everlasting, and in their place insist upon translations that are obscure at best, and downright hokie to say the least.
    “Hokie?” Thanks for sharing that hermeneutical term with us.

    As for your “thousands upon thousands of reknowned Greek scholars,” it would appear that “broad is the way that leads to destruction” applies to scholars too, as according to you, they are indeed the ones marching shoulder to shoulder by the “thousands” down the broad path of “never-ending torture theology.”

    Neither being in a majority makes your doctrine right, nor does being “renowned.”

    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Redfin was playing thread police earlier.
    Ah, and I thought you might have gotten over that “projection” thing…

    Leave a comment:


  • PKevman
    replied
    Redfin, I'll give you a quote:

    God despises Universalism! It mocks Him and His holiness and righteousness, and it mocks His Word.

    Leave a comment:


  • PKevman
    replied
    Oh boy! Redfin is replying class. Let's see what inanities that avoid the Bible he can come up with next.

    Leave a comment:


  • PKevman
    replied
    Red tries and misses again!

    (Just for the fun of it, I put your quotes in red here and my responses to you in blue, Red.)

    Originally posted by Red77
    Well it is disingenuous of you to say that only the universalists have kept this thread going as long as it has, Redfin is right, you've resurrected this thread plenty of times...
    And you and Redfin both have twisted and distorted again what was said. I never said that ONLY the universalists have kept this thread going in the first place. Man you people cannot even have a simple conversation without twisting and contorting someone's words. Here was what I said:

    Originally posted by pastorkevin
    What's stunning to me is that you boneheads have helped make BR XII the most discussed Battle Talk thread in the history of TOL! WOW!
    I said you boneheads have HELPED make BR XII the most discussed Battle Talk thread in the history of TOL. This particular conversation is a perfect example of why. Words are bent around and twisted, and it takes 5-6 posts to straighten it out, but you will continue to twist and bend things said until the people just give up and figure it isn't worth it banging their head against the wall trying to talk to you. Universalism=MUMBO JUMBO!


    Originally posted by Red77
    Pastor - why do you do this? You did the same with me in another thread saying I bet I'd love it if you just talked about how the weather was instead of anything meaty.....I'll say the same as then, no I wouldn't, I don't fear any type of debate with you or anyone else on this subject or otherwise, neither I very much doubt will Redfin or anyone else, say what you want, noone is scared of addressing your own conceptions
    If it were only my "conceptions" then there would be no issue and this thread woudl not have stretched so long. We haven't been talking about conceptions. We have been talking about what the Bible says. You accept only the verses that you think fit your cushy little theology and reject the ones that don't. You are fine with accepting a literal hermeneutic with some verses, but NOT the ones that destroy your flimsy Universalist views.

    Originally posted by Red77
    God being 100% succesful and nobody being senselessly tormented is an 'evil theology',
    Your age-old strawman has NEVER worked Red. It has been refuted time and again. We never have said GOD wasn't 100% successful. It would seem you would get tired of lying. GOD was 100% successful, but He gave His creatures a will of their own to act contrary to HIS will or to obey His will. This is shown throughout the Word of God.

    For instance: God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They did so anyway, demonstrating that they had wills of their own.

    God DESIRES all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, but He also gives them the ability to choose or reject that salvation. This IS the Gospel message Red. That Christ died for the sins of the unGodly. That WHOSOEVER will put their faith and trust in Him will not perish, but will have everlasting life. It's an open-ended invitation.

    Your theology is evil because it denies God's Word, denies that His justice and holiness are just as eternal as His love. In order to be a Universalist you must accept the following positions:

    DENY- the verses that state clearly and literally that the wicked are tormented day and night forever and ever.
    DENY- the verses that clearly state that anyone whose name is NOT in the Book of Life WILL NOT enter Heaven.
    DENY- that those who have not believed are condemned already, which is to DENY the words of Jesus HImself.
    DENY- the translations of thousands upon thousands of reknowned Greek scholars for the words that mean eternal and everlasting, and in their place insist upon translations that are obscure at best, and downright hokie to say the least.


    Originally posted by Red77
    good grief...... how hard hearted do we have to be to think that senseless agonising suffering is right pastor?
    As we have already showned you time and again, if you had the same view of sin that God does you would not think it is senseless in the least. You would humble yourself before a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God and repent of your sins, and be thankful that He would spare any sinners like you and me!

    Originally posted by Red77
    Nobody said you didn't have the right.....
    Redfin was playing thread police earlier. My response was to him, and did not involve you. He's a big boy Red, he can stick up for himself! But I guess what they say is true: "Birds of a feather flock together." In this instance the TWO birds being you and Redfin are a pair of false teachers!

    Originally posted by Red77
    Yes, lets all embrace families, loved ones and friends being fried for eternity instead, there's only one 'garbage' theology that would promote such evil......
    Or you could show them love and compassion and do EVERYTHING you can to try to warn them about the Lake of Fire! Instead the message you are proclaiming will leave you with BLOOD on your hands if anyone goes into eternity trusting anything other than Christ because of the false hope that YOU have given them!

    That in and of itself should cause you to pause and consider this whole entire thing. But your heart is so set and hard against what God has to say on this subject that you won't hear. Still, maybe others reading this might, so I will press on and NEVER give up in my fight against the false teaching of Universalism. I find it to be quite possibly the most dangerous and wicked theology out there!

    Leave a comment:


  • red77
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Really? To whom?
    Well it is disingenuous of you to say that only the universalists have kept this thread going as long as it has, Redfin is right, you've resurrected this thread plenty of times...

    Lots of people on here know me quite well and better than you. You would love to silence me from continually pointing out the flaws in Universalism would't you? Why don't you repent and turn from your evil theology and embrace the God of the Bible and not your made up one from Universalism?
    Pastor - why do you do this? You did the same with me in another thread saying I bet I'd love it if you just talked about how the weather was instead of anything meaty.....I'll say the same as then, no I wouldn't, I don't fear any type of debate with you or anyone else on this subject or otherwise, neither I very much doubt will Redfin or anyone else, say what you want, noone is scared of addressing your own conceptions

    God being 100% succesful and nobody being senselessly tormented is an 'evil theology', good grief...... how hard hearted do we have to be to think that senseless agonising suffering is right pastor?



    I participated in this Battle Royale. I think I have a right to make posts in the Battle Talk thread without having to get your permission. Who died and made you king?
    Nobody said you didn't have the right.....

    Keep doing that, and maybe you will realize what garbage theology Universalism really is.
    Yes, lets all embrace families, loved ones and friends being fried for eternity instead, there's only one 'garbage' theology that would promote such evil......

    Leave a comment:

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