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  • freelight
    replied
    Love without end............

    ~*~*~

    Greetings all, just continuing our meditations on the subject. I know,...old hat perhaps,...but worth researching.

    meta-tation:

    Considering the Infinity of God's LOVE, let us review the Father's Will for all his offspring, notwithstanding the proclivities of free-will choice as these determine or decide the soul's condition or final destiny.

    As we have surveyed,...there are many dimensions involved in this equation, these perspectives affecting various conclusions. Ultimately God's Will reigns univerally, no matter what particular individuals decide concerning their own personal vocation or end. Only if individual free will is 'sovereign' in regard to its own personal fate or destiny, and this is honored by God,...can we presume that God allows each soul its own course, of either life or death (this 'death' being a 'seperation' or 'final dissolution'/ 'extinction of individual survival' (disintegration).

    Since His mercy is everlasting,....any soul that still has capacity for repentance can avail his saving grace, and so fulfill the higher Will of his individual purpose in God. The doctrine that some wicked souls will be detained in a lake of fire forever and ever, with no hope or remedy,...defies logic, reason, purpose and common-sense, in the light of God's Eternal Character and Will. Only if a soul can make a final decision of utter rejection of God/Life....and so suffer a 'final death'...will that soul be disintegrated. This view is a more tenable option besides Universalism,...since it respects individual free-will liberties, and provides a more sound universe-ecology or eschatology than God maintaining an eternal torture chamber for all eternity.

    'God' detaining souls in a lake of fire or Hellish realm(of no escape).....forever and ever and ever and ever is insane. - besides being a blight and bane upon His Just/Merciful Nature, His divine Dignity.

    While I'm essentially a universalist(in more ways than one), I also regard the possibility of 'annihilation', although i would reterm this as 'disintegration' or 'extinction' of individual selfhood'. I realize this is a complex issue touching many dimensions of what constitutes 'individual existence' or 'soul', and by what process could a soul actually be 'disintegrated', undergoing a final death. These issues must first be insighted, before jumping to some absolute conclusion on the matter. However, concerning God's eternal Goodness and Wisdom,...we can trust His mediations as wholly fair, just and merciful as only His Perfect BEING can administer.

    As long as a soul 'can' avail Gods Love/mercy....there is hope, salvation, potential, survival capacity. - and this is good news indeed.

    God is Love.





    pj

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  • Aimiel
    replied
    Originally posted by zapp View Post
    I may be stepping in ill-timed here... but a universalist message in especially the new testament writings is a given, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Love's Will............

    ~*~*~*~

    Hi all,

    Just thought to spruce the thread up a bit with a reminder of

    the Supremacy of Love and Triumph of divine Will.

    We've had a few threads on 'hell' in the Religious section,....ever a hot topic


    Shalom,





    pj

    Leave a comment:


  • adamwaw
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Right. God is right, and they are wrong. So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely. God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint, because the words are very clear. It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach. That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.

    God is right, and they are wrong.
    Of course they are wrong "Pastor"
    When you say God is right you actually mean your point of view is right.

    So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely
    Tis the story of Christianity.

    God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.
    Actually your wrong "Pastor"
    No where in the bible is it even alluded to that judgment will come to those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus.

    Jesus sacrificed himself to his God of his own freewill never alluding to "You must accept my sacrifice on the cross or else"

    You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint
    Really?
    Is that why it was the prevailing belief of the Church for the first 500 years?
    You forget the other texts that were written and believed in by the early Church Fathers before a group of "politically minded" men voted on the current cannon (with an extra 14 books not in your bible today, but still in the Catholic version)

    Maybe If you have time in "Being busy with much" you should read a little more than what a Seminary wants you to teach and read.
    You might learn something different.
    http://tinyurl.com/lr3fc

    It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach.
    You would say that about Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Oneness Pentecostal, Catholicism, and on and on I could go.
    The truth is is that anything outside of the scope of what you have been indoctrinated with is considered heresy, and Un-Biblical isn't it.

    That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.
    The same can be said about Orthodox Christians as well.
    Let's see:

    That is why the Orthodox Christians cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.

    Leave a comment:


  • zapp
    replied
    I may be stepping in ill-timed here... but a universalist message in especially the new testament writings is a given, right? Or are you guys discussing a particular, narrow, modernist Strain or Sect of formalized Universalism?

    all good seminaries of many, if not all christian flavors, teach and probe both the universalist and peculiarist themes that are in the fabric of the new testament writings. Its a false dialectic to torture an "either/or" stance .... like so many misguided 'debates'.

    'we now return you to your regularly programmed broadcast'.....

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by Redfin View Post
    Kev owes you one... your replies make his look almost rational by comparison!
    Thanks! I'm sure PK appreciates the "help." Considering the question of rational argument, Universalists don't have any.

    You're welcome.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    Right. God is right, and they are wrong. So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely. God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint, because the words are very clear. It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach. That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.
    Don't forget the part about throwing away all the Biblical statements that disagree with the Universalist Nuance. If it were that easy, I could have saved a bunch of time going over that very question.

    Leave a comment:


  • CabinetMaker
    replied
    Originally posted by red77 View Post
    No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?
    Well, the eternal lake of fire is doctrinal. Jesus teaches of it Himself. So why do insist on rejecting Jesus in favor of something you admit does not exist?

    Leave a comment:


  • red77
    replied
    Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
    There is no such doctrine. I have looked and looked and there is no such doctrine.
    No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.
    Biblical Universalism agrees with that, PastorKlueless!

    Wake up, Barney!

    It's too bad (for your case) that you have no substantive objections to offer.

    No multiplicity of neg-reps and snide comments will help your case either, but if it makes you feel better, be my guest.

    Just keep the real bullets in your pocket, where, they belong, deputy.

    Leave a comment:


  • CabinetMaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Redfin View Post
    The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!
    There is no such doctrine. I have looked and looked and there is no such doctrine.

    Leave a comment:


  • PKevman
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankErnest
    There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.
    Right. God is right, and they are wrong. So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely. God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint, because the words are very clear. It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach. That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redfin
    replied
    Originally posted by Frank Ernest View Post
    It leaves no option but to trust Universalists.

    Whoever said that? You made that up!

    There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.

    I have. Thanks.
    Kev owes you one... your replies make his look almost rational by comparison!

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by Redfin View Post
    The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!
    It leaves no option but to trust Universalists.
    Furthermore, that trust is justified in that He is seen to be not only sufficient but effective to the task, worthy of our worship and trust, unlike in your namby-pamby, "God-must-submit-to-man's-free-will" theology.
    Whoever said that? You made that up!
    There is no "false hope" in the Christian Universalist scenario, only hope "in Christ," for everyone, no exceptions.
    There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.
    I have. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frank Ernest
    replied
    Originally posted by red77 View Post
    don't you think that it's about time you at least had some consistency about just what it is that you believe?
    I am consistent. You keep playing with strawman arguments.
    No i'm not, i'm just not putting time constraints on it....
    Did God put time constraints on it?

    Leave a comment:

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