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  • GregoryN
    replied
    Originally posted by PKevman View Post
    Why do Universalists say they believe that God accomplishes ALL of His will but deny that He could preserve His Word to modern times.............
    What makes you think His Word/Scriptures haven't been "preserved"?

    As to God accomplishing His will:

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved. (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires (thelo) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.")

    Premise 2: God accomplishes all He desires. (e.g., Isaiah 55:11: "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire (thelo, from the Septuagint), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.")

    Conclusion: All will be saved.

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  • GregoryN
    replied
    Originally posted by PKevman View Post
    Good grief no! But that is what Universalist "scholars" do when they make bold statements that words don't mean what most scholars have translated them to mean. My point is why do we disregard virtually ALL of the modern Bible translations just because Universalists dont like what they say?
    "I understand it is hard to grasp for many, but for 1000 years there was no Bible available at all for the common people who had to rely on a corrupt clergy, however even the worst translations contain the universalist verses and show that "for ever" is not always endless. It's only for a few years now where all people have access to all translations and even the source texts in their original languages."

    Blindly relying on a bunch of biased versions cloned by the pro ECT advocates boys club is worth as much as a piece of toilet paper. If atheists shelled out to have printed 100 versions saying "God is dead" would you accept that because the 100 outnumber what other versions say?

    Since the translators all believed in endless punishment, what else would you expect, except that they all would mis-translate certain "hell" passages the same way? Obviously.

    Dozens of English translations don't agree with those cloned by the endless tortures boys club.

    Likewise the early church father Greek scholar universalists would have rejected your cloned excuses for translations. Better to call them paraphrases, interpretations or theological driven opinions of what the originally inspired ancient language texts say.

    Even your cloned theologically driven interpretative "versions" support universalism, which makes them self-contradictory, e.g.:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context.

    What biased scholars who agreed with the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" (of Inquisitions, Crusades, burning opposers to death with fire & their writings) have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    "Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

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  • GregoryN
    replied
    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Continued Research.......

    Originally posted by Scottune View Post
    Great battle...I think kevin did a good job and with great poise and attitude. Logos made some valid points. I want to be a universalist and have tried for a year now but just not enough scriptural support. I realize ill have to believe the bible is loaded with errors to do it and cant get myself there. What I dont understand is how pastor kevin is able to belive in eternal torment for unbelivers and yet still see god as loving?.....or more than that see him as a good mastermind behind creation? My unanswerable question I have that I would love to battle someone on is....after adam and eve sinned why didnt god close eves womb and save billions from going to endless torment? The only logical answer is universalism or annihilation...... Ive tried to get answers and have yet to find one.....can someone please help me?
    Hi Scottune,

    If you've read any of the posts here you'll see my views written at various time-points, so some of my views may have changed or been modified in various ways, ever evolving - My blog archive on ECT (eternal conscious torment) from a particular thread on the subject is here, and we expound on it more here ('Justification of Eternal Punishment' thread). I see the truth of ultimate destinies lying somewhere between aspects of universalism and 'conditional immortality', but am careful on how we employ those terms,....'terms' having their own 'terms'...and so on. I've also shared how trying to find a so called 'biblical perspective' is limited to the terms provided in the Bible which are not perfect, nor complete IMO,...hence all the various opinions and interpretations, which is why I draw from a university of many different religious traditions, schools of philosophy/metaphysics, Theosophy, Spiritualism, psychical research, etc. to be included in what has been revealed to man so far, in knowledge and experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scottune
    replied
    Great battle...I think kevin did a good job and with great poise and attitude. Logos made some valid points. I want to be a universalist and have tried for a year now but just not enough scriptural support. I realize ill have to believe the bible is loaded with errors to do it and cant get myself there. What I dont understand is how pastor kevin is able to belive in eternal torment for unbelivers and yet still see god as loving?.....or more than that see him as a good mastermind behind creation? My unanswerable question I have that I would love to battle someone on is....after adam and eve sinned why didnt god close eves womb and save billions from going to endless torment? The only logical answer is universalism or annihilation...... Ive tried to get answers and have yet to find one.....can someone please help me?

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Love does no harm..........

    Originally posted by raphaelx View Post

    Again proving the adage "to save the best for last" ...

    I gave up on the actual BR 2 paragraphs into the first round from logos when it was apparent that he was only arguing about the length of time spent in a lake of fire, not against the existence of the lake itself. Also, skipped right to the last page of the grandstand comments coz im just too lazy and uninterested to read 3000+ posts since 2006 ...
    Glad to see some common sense in the final post (to date) tho ...

    Let it be clear: God is not a demon who derives pleasure from torturing erring humans. God is not Stalin, Hitler or George W. Bush.
    Anyone who believes that an infinite, perfect, divine God whose nature is eternal love, could create such a place or harbour such emotions is ignorant of the truth, goodness and beauty of God and is unqualified to speak with authority about Him.

    Let me say further: those who believe in the existence of Hell and feel justified in their own belief of it are of spirit and nature much closer to Stalin, Hitler and George W. Bush, nay, even of Satan himself as he is presented in the Christian faith, than of the loving, merciful, perfect and true God who created the Universe and blessed us with the opportunity to partake in it.

    A leaf cannot survive unless it is attached to a tree. In the same way, human beings, as spirit entities, exist only due to their attachment to God. Human beings who willfully and deliberately remove themselves from the tree of God will, by their own volition, wither and die. This is not by divine wrath or punishment; it is not permeated with feelings of anger or enmity; it is simply the natural consequence following from specific actions.

    The wages of sin are death ... this is just a fact.







    pj

    Leave a comment:


  • raphaelx
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavenbound View Post
    The doctrine of eternal torment is in error because it is contrary to the biblical teaching that there is life only in Christ. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).

    A person burning in hell would not have a pleasant life, but he would have life. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment (Romans 6:23).
    Again proving the adage "to save the best for last" ...

    I gave up on the actual BR 2 paragraphs into the first round from logos when it was apparent that he was only arguing about the length of time spent in a lake of fire, not against the existence of the lake itself. Also, skipped right to the last page of the grandstand comments coz im just too lazy and uninterested to read 3000+ posts since 2006 ...
    Glad to see some common sense in the final post (to date) tho ...

    Let it be clear: God is not a demon who derives pleasure from torturing erring humans. God is not Stalin, Hitler or George W. Bush.
    Anyone who believes that an infinite, perfect, divine God whose nature is eternal love, could create such a place or harbour such emotions is ignorant of the truth, goodness and beauty of God and is unqualified to speak with authority about Him.

    Let me say further: those who believe in the existence of Hell and feel justified in their own belief of it are of spirit and nature much closer to Stalin, Hitler and George W. Bush, nay, even of Satan himself as he is presented in the Christian faith, than of the loving, merciful, perfect and true God who created the Universe and blessed us with the opportunity to partake in it.

    A leaf cannot survive unless it is attached to a tree. In the same way, human beings, as spirit entities, exist only due to their attachment to God. Human beings who willfully and deliberately remove themselves from the tree of God will, by their own volition, wither and die. This is not by divine wrath or punishment; it is not permeated with feelings of anger or enmity; it is simply the natural consequence following from specific actions.

    The wages of sin are death ... this is just a fact.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavenbound
    replied
    The doctrine of eternal torment is in error because it is contrary to the biblical teaching that there is life only in Christ. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).

    A person burning in hell would not have a pleasant life, but he would have life. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment (Romans 6:23).

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Infinity

    ~*~*~

    Adding to whats been shared previously -

    Consider God's Infinite Love. It must by its very nature extend beyond, outshine and surpass any notion or concept of 'love' that the human mind can understand, comprehend or even know. Within this context, even with the gift of 'free will' it retains its supremacy....no matter where such freedom of choice carries the soul. As long as a soul has the capacity, willingness and opportunity for 'salvation' or 'enlightenment', it can afford itself the provision and liberty of 'God', since this Love is omnipresent.


    pj

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  • nathan_r
    replied
    Reading the BR posts and some of the comments, a few thoughts.
    PastorKevin is seemingly applying a double standard to the word "Death" in some of his later posts, when referring to physical death -the 'first' death- it is used as an end, absolute, but when referring to the 'second' -spiritual- death it now, apparently, is not really an end but rather a continuing form of existence defined by unending pain and suffering, how can this be?
    Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Notice the operative word "Destroy" as in unmake, no longer in existence, perhaps when the Bible refers to the 'second death' it actually means a cessation of existence? As in the soul truly being 'dead'?
    logos_x seems to be taking a lot of flak for trying to point out that the modern translations of certain verses may have given the wrong interpretations, but in fairness PastorKevins whole argument is based upon his interpretation of said passages, if -as logos_x asks- those interpretations are misguided by wrongly translating certain Greek words then what does PK base his beliefs on?
    And if PK holds the correct theology what about the countless humans who have lived and died since Christ died on the Cross, specifically those who never heard the Gospel in the first place -due to lack of missionary efforts, for instance what of the peoples of South America? Is every last one of them who died before missionaries brought the gospel of Christ to them damned? Merely for not having heard the truth? Is it "Too bad for you, you were born in the wrong place and didn't hear the good news, so off to hell you go."?!
    Also on a related note, what of unborn children who are killed (by aborticide\abortion, for instance)? The Bible clearly states that all men (humans) are born in sin, and also in Deuteronomy 5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
    so that even if you try to split hairs and say the one has to be born (physically) to be a sinner the above verse denies that claim.
    I will conclude with this; If you truly believe that eternal punishment is the default destination of man (humanity) unless he hears and obeys the word of God by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, how can anything in life be more important then witnessing and\or missionary work?! For how many have already been condemned because they never heard the truth of Salvation?

    God bless you all.

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  • dissident
    replied
    Where are the people here?

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  • dim1
    replied
    I wanna be in the next BR

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  • freelight
    replied
    Originally posted by Redfin View Post


    This is a fun thread,....so thought to perk it back up, for curious readers. Its 'good news' (gospel) that we can eternally survive and progress as souls into the infinite beyond, without a 'god' keeping us 'alive' only to torment us without end, doomed to roast forever and ever in a lake of fire.

    Love has better plans for those mindful of eternal good.



    pj

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  • Redfin
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • freelight
    replied
    Agape

    ~*~*~

    God prevails.......


    originally, universally, absolutely, ultimately.......





    pj

    Leave a comment:

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