Kimberlyann
New member
Nice post....:thumb:belboy87 said:
BRXII Battle talk
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Aimiel said:
That is incredible news :kook: Evidently the Sovereign Lord of the whole creation shares His throne in partnership with evil. Or perhaps there is a region where the omnipresent One does not dwell. Perhaps He is not omnipresent. Oh, the possibilities are endless
Traditional Theology = Evil will exist forever. :noway:
Aimiel said:
What type of response is this? Do you think that by saying :duh:, not addressing any of these verses or having any rebuttals to hand means you're providing an effective counter argument?
Common sense: God is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe, if this doesnt mean precisely that then why not? Is this verse not "plain" enough? I think it is and you've yet to even attempt to address it,
Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all to be testified in due time, you cant explain why you dont believe it to be the case - why not?
why cant you see this?! why do you persist in limiting the power of God by declaring that all things arent possible for him?! You havent had a single answer for any of this and until you have some kind of answer then its ironic that you accuse others of being "in the dark"......
The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in NEVER TO GO OUT AGAIN, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The 'eternal state' is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the "final perfection" yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God.
God has never given us numbers however, Jesus has stated that the gate to destruction is wide and many will enter through it. It is not a question of logic, it is what God has stated in the Bible.belboy87 said:
God is not subject to human concepts of "common sense" for the wisdome of man (aka common sense) will be shown to be foolishness.belboy87 said:
Yes. Because you are not cast into the lake of fire for your sins, they are forgiven. You are condemned to the lake of fire for refusing to have faith in Jesus. You don't want Jesus in this life, you will not be forced to spend the next life with Him either. It is what the Bible says and I accept that as truth.belboy87 said:
I am beyond the the ability of mens wisdom (pronounced foolishness) to convince me that God does not mean what He says.belboy87 said:
God is not subject to my beliefes about what is just and holy and nice and evil. I am subject to His. It is my responsability to align my will to God.
I do believe that that is the most round about way of saying "you're right... it doesn't make sense... but it doesn't have to!".
If YOU want to lean on your scriptures, and say "it must be true, even if it completely contradicts God!" then you can... and if you can sit there, and HONESTLY SAY, that God will JUSTIFIABLY burn one of His own creations for the rest of eternity (as if it is merited), what do you expect me to reply to you with?!
If I were you, and I believed that the God I followed was going to barbecue my Aunt Tilda forever, because she happened to be more stubborn than me... I'd find a new God.
I just asked you if you thought that it was logical that God says "love thine enemies" and yet it was ok for Him to torture His... ETERNALLY... and you said "yup, that's right.... dunno why, but must be true because I believe the (translated) Bible!".
This is the kind of blind following found in cults... I am not trying to insult you or call you names, but this is truly baffeling. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
Wow
Speechless
If YOU want to lean on your scriptures, and say "it must be true, even if it completely contradicts God!" then you can... and if you can sit there, and HONESTLY SAY, that God will JUSTIFIABLY burn one of His own creations for the rest of eternity (as if it is merited), what do you expect me to reply to you with?!
If I were you, and I believed that the God I followed was going to barbecue my Aunt Tilda forever, because she happened to be more stubborn than me... I'd find a new God.
I just asked you if you thought that it was logical that God says "love thine enemies" and yet it was ok for Him to torture His... ETERNALLY... and you said "yup, that's right.... dunno why, but must be true because I believe the (translated) Bible!".
This is the kind of blind following found in cults... I am not trying to insult you or call you names, but this is truly baffeling. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
Wow
Speechless
Another thing that I simply HAVE to reply to....
I'm truly worried for you PK, and for whomever wrote this example up. Before I used an example, I would have examined it to see how easily it could be reversed. Let me reverse it for you.
Funny that you would step into the realm of logic to justify your stance. Please turn around quickly, you have no support from the realm of Common Sense. Sorry.
I'm truly worried for you PK, and for whomever wrote this example up. Before I used an example, I would have examined it to see how easily it could be reversed. Let me reverse it for you.
Funny that you would step into the realm of logic to justify your stance. Please turn around quickly, you have no support from the realm of Common Sense. Sorry.
{quote=Unknown}
The Hornets
To the tune of This Is Like Heaven To Me
If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, oh no,
They would not compel you to go 'gainst your will
But they would just make you willing to go.
Chorus
He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But he just makes us willing to go.[/quote]
This was offered to counter the psycho chef analogy of PK. Something bothered me about it and I finally realized what.
It is question of motivation. Who released the hornets and why? They were released by somebody to manipulate a situation based on their knowledge of human nature. If you manipulate somebody into an action, did the person act on their own free will or did they act against their will but in accordance with human nature of not getting stung.
Picture some people in a room full of all kinds of earthly delights. Food and games and entertainment abound and it is FUN. Now the builder of this room says that he has another room in the house that is even better and he invites you to come see. He only says that the room is better, nothing else. He invites you to come and see it repeatedly but he never compels you to go. He wants you to come when you are ready. In short, the owner of the house wants you to come of your own free will. If the owner suddenly releases a bunch of hornets into the fun room, are the people leaving the room because they want to see the other room, or because they don't want to get stung?
What do you believe about God? Does God want us to believe in Jesus and accept His offer of salvation of our own free will or does He manipulate the situation to force you into a course of action He wants?
This is the crux of the whole debate between universal salvation and eternal torment: what is the nature of God? Ultimately, universal salvation is a settled view theology as man has no choice in the matter - everybody will ultimately go to heaven no matter what. Like all settled view theology, it makes the crucifixion meaningless because it the long run, it doesn’t matter.
The Open view makes man responsible for responding to God and hence, for his own fate. God initiates the relationship by knocking at the door of your heart. Each of us must determine if and how we respond to that entreaty, will we open and hearts and listen or will we reject God. God gave us the gift (curse?) of free will. He allows us to freely choose between the options open to us.
So is God a settled view God who has predetermined absolutely everything that has ever been, is and ever will be? Or is God an open view God who has given us a free will and a choice?
The Hornets
To the tune of This Is Like Heaven To Me
If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce
You'd want to get out, don't you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, oh no,
They would not compel you to go 'gainst your will
But they would just make you willing to go.
Chorus
He does not compel us to go, no, no
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But he just makes us willing to go.[/quote]
This was offered to counter the psycho chef analogy of PK. Something bothered me about it and I finally realized what.
It is question of motivation. Who released the hornets and why? They were released by somebody to manipulate a situation based on their knowledge of human nature. If you manipulate somebody into an action, did the person act on their own free will or did they act against their will but in accordance with human nature of not getting stung.
Picture some people in a room full of all kinds of earthly delights. Food and games and entertainment abound and it is FUN. Now the builder of this room says that he has another room in the house that is even better and he invites you to come see. He only says that the room is better, nothing else. He invites you to come and see it repeatedly but he never compels you to go. He wants you to come when you are ready. In short, the owner of the house wants you to come of your own free will. If the owner suddenly releases a bunch of hornets into the fun room, are the people leaving the room because they want to see the other room, or because they don't want to get stung?
What do you believe about God? Does God want us to believe in Jesus and accept His offer of salvation of our own free will or does He manipulate the situation to force you into a course of action He wants?
This is the crux of the whole debate between universal salvation and eternal torment: what is the nature of God? Ultimately, universal salvation is a settled view theology as man has no choice in the matter - everybody will ultimately go to heaven no matter what. Like all settled view theology, it makes the crucifixion meaningless because it the long run, it doesn’t matter.
The Open view makes man responsible for responding to God and hence, for his own fate. God initiates the relationship by knocking at the door of your heart. Each of us must determine if and how we respond to that entreaty, will we open and hearts and listen or will we reject God. God gave us the gift (curse?) of free will. He allows us to freely choose between the options open to us.
So is God a settled view God who has predetermined absolutely everything that has ever been, is and ever will be? Or is God an open view God who has given us a free will and a choice?
Oh no! What WILL we do????? :shocked:belboy87 said:
CabinetMaker said:
This was offered to counter the psycho chef analogy of PK. Something bothered me about it and I finally realized what.
It is question of motivation. Who released the hornets and why? They were released by somebody to manipulate a situation based on their knowledge of human nature. If you manipulate somebody into an action, did the person act on their own free will or did they act against their will but in accordance with human nature of not getting stung.
Picture some people in a room full of all kinds of earthly delights. Food and games and entertainment abound and it is FUN. Now the builder of this room says that he has another room in the house that is even better and he invites you to come see. He only says that the room is better, nothing else. He invites you to come and see it repeatedly but he never compels you to go. He wants you to come when you are ready. In short, the owner of the house wants you to come of your own free will. If the owner suddenly releases a bunch of hornets into the fun room, are the people leaving the room because they want to see the other room, or because they don't want to get stung?
What do you believe about God? Does God want us to believe in Jesus and accept His offer of salvation of our own free will or does He manipulate the situation to force you into a course of action He wants?
This is the crux of the whole debate between universal salvation and eternal torment: what is the nature of God? Ultimately, universal salvation is a settled view theology as man has no choice in the matter - everybody will ultimately go to heaven no matter what. Like all settled view theology, it makes the crucifixion meaningless because it the long run, it doesn’t matter.
The Open view makes man responsible for responding to God and hence, for his own fate. God initiates the relationship by knocking at the door of your heart. Each of us must determine if and how we respond to that entreaty, will we open and hearts and listen or will we reject God. God gave us the gift (curse?) of free will. He allows us to freely choose between the options open to us.
So is God a settled view God who has predetermined absolutely everything that has ever been, is and ever will be? Or is God an open view God who has given us a free will and a choice?[/QUOTE]
Actually, the funny thing is, we aren't all that dissimilar.
You believe that God motivates people by holding hell over their heads (if they're lucky enough to know about it). And if they say no, He puts them there.
We believe that God motivates people by letting them see hell for themselves.
We are the ones that took your theology and simply brought it to a conclusion....
Yet assuming they "see it" and want to stay there... can they?belboy87 said:
OK, lets get something straight O' Universalists, you are wearing on my patience to an all-time high.Zadok said:
I have had to warn you (as a group) several times for various reasons (i.e., spamming the board with dozens of identical threads, spamming the forum with links to universalist websites etc.) and the latest trend is the most disturbing. You cannot... I repeat... CANNOT use other peoples material and claim it as your own. This behavior is STRICTLY prohibited!
Logos_x completely ripped off other peoples material throughout the entire battle (especially in round #3) and we gave him a "pass" (against my own better judgment). And now I find folks here in the battle talk thread ripping off other people's writings as if it was their own. :nono: Is this the best you guys can do? Can't you write your own material? You guys are as pathetic as your crappy, wacked out, unbiblical theology you promote!
Let me tell you all.... if you are going to rip off pre-written material you will be banned without warning. End of story.
The above message was composed by me. :knight:
Knight said:
Lol Knight.
I for one have not ripped off other people's materials... OR spammed....
And, PK, I assume that you are three yes's for my questions post? If not, please modify my assumption.
PS. The really really nice thing about my stance? I can say "oh well... you'll see." and let you find the truth at the judgement seat.
Sorry that more people are gonna be in heavan then you think...
Logos_x (like all of Universalism) base their rejection of the gospel on their own personal feelings. They humanistically determine that hell cannot be real and eternal because they themselves don't think Hell is just. And to justify their rejection of the clear message of the Bible they pick at a word here or there. They say clear verses and chapters mean something other than what they say. They remind me of Calvinists or preterists distorting the clear, simple to understand gospel and they turn it into a complicated story that only they seem to be able to see or understand.
Notice these excerpts from BR XII posted by logos_x.....
"I simply do not believe that God wants an eternal Hell"
"...ask yourself: What GOOD is the doctrine of eternal torment?"
"Do you honestly think..."
"I should think."
"Seems to me..."
"I believe..."
"I don't think God is an idiot. But the dogma of eternal torment makes Him out to be."
"Well...I think that God is the smart one and the serpent is a liar."
"I believe the truth is that we die."
"See...I think that God is smart enough..."
"I believe, again, that God prevents man from eating of the tree of life..."
"I think that's pretty twisted!"
"I don't know."
"In my view, Christ came to destroy all the works of the adversary!"
"It is my contention that He didn't create one..."
"That has been my contention from the beginning of this Battle.."
"I believe..."
"I believe your view..."
"Now, I believe that the death of this divine Jesus was sufficient to take away the sins of the world..."
Logos_x side of the debate reminds me of a song I once heard....
:singer:
Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
Wo-o-o, Feelings, nothing more than feelings.
pastorkevin, on the other hand, preached the gospel! He wrote his own material and he preached the gospel! Pastorkevin won the debate in round #2 and then crushed logos and universalism in round #3.
pastorkevein won the debate with the following paragraph...
I don't believe in eternal torment because "I think" that's they way God should have made things. Eternal torment awaits those that reject God because thats the way God says it will be, case closed!
Notice these excerpts from BR XII posted by logos_x.....
"I simply do not believe that God wants an eternal Hell"
"...ask yourself: What GOOD is the doctrine of eternal torment?"
"Do you honestly think..."
"I should think."
"Seems to me..."
"I believe..."
"I don't think God is an idiot. But the dogma of eternal torment makes Him out to be."
"Well...I think that God is the smart one and the serpent is a liar."
"I believe the truth is that we die."
"See...I think that God is smart enough..."
"I believe, again, that God prevents man from eating of the tree of life..."
"I think that's pretty twisted!"
"I don't know."
"In my view, Christ came to destroy all the works of the adversary!"
"It is my contention that He didn't create one..."
"That has been my contention from the beginning of this Battle.."
"I believe..."
"I believe your view..."
"Now, I believe that the death of this divine Jesus was sufficient to take away the sins of the world..."
Logos_x side of the debate reminds me of a song I once heard....
:singer:
Feelings, nothing more than feelings,
Feelings, wo-o-o feelings,
Wo-o-o, Feelings, nothing more than feelings.
pastorkevin, on the other hand, preached the gospel! He wrote his own material and he preached the gospel! Pastorkevin won the debate in round #2 and then crushed logos and universalism in round #3.
pastorkevein won the debate with the following paragraph...
OK... Ok... so it was Jesus who really won the debate but He used Pastorkevin brilliantly to squelch Universalism for good except for the willingly ignorant.
I don't believe in eternal torment because "I think" that's they way God should have made things. Eternal torment awaits those that reject God because thats the way God says it will be, case closed!
Sorry, I know I'm not supposed to be "spamming" with material written by someone else, but....
15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
15:24
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
15:25
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
15:27
For "He has put all things under His feet." F48 But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
CASE CLOSED.
15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
15:24
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
15:25
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
15:27
For "He has put all things under His feet." F48 But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
CASE CLOSED.
Universalism lost.belboy87 said:
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Well then, you better be "in Christ". :duh:
Well then, you better be "in Christ". :duh:
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